[Jeff Collier]

Just one last comment on bracket racing before I fade back into oblivion with my humble opinion and antiquated equipment. I know this idea flies in the face of everything many of you hold sacred about kart racing and racing in general. I get it. You have told me that many times on this forum and in person. You told me the same thing when I suggested this idea many years ago before I quit road racing.  Its not racing in your minds. I so get it.  The idea that anybody with any budget and any equipment has an equal chance of winning if he doesn’t “break out”, and with the right strategy gets its just right in your mind that just ain’t racing. I get it. I get it. I get it. So please don’t repost yet again how lame this idea is because it flys in the face of all you hold sacred about racing. I get it.

Here is the point you miss. Nowhere have I or anyone proposed eliminating a single successful competition class.  Run 50 competition classes if you have the karts for it. You have my full support and I encourage you to race in as many as you can afford. In exchange for my full and vocal support of as many competition classes as you have the karts to support, would you consider just one bracket class. Just one slow one …maybe about 10 seconds off a good Yamaha Sportsman time. Just one…not 20…just one.

Here is  who would consider running such a class. The potential customer: A guy who has used up equipment (like me) who just wants to run in a close event (see I didn’t even call it a race)… a guy who is 30# overweight for even the heavy class with no hopes of ever winning that class because of his weight… a new guy who just wants to learn to drive in close proximity to other karts…a guy whose good engine dies and all he has got is that piece of crap in the trailer…a newbie you invite to the track and you let drive your kart…everyone of the guys I just named and there are many more would have no chance to win …none…nada…in any of the competition classes…but in this class anyone is capable of winning if he dials in his kart the closest. There is still just one winner – the guy who got it right…ran the fastest and most consistent without breaking out. Strategy…preparation…consistency…close racing…and a real chance to win the thing…enough of each of these to make it fun for these guys. (remember fun?)

Ok I get it…not your cup of tea. Run in one of the 50 Competition classes. But if there are enough of us who would show up and run such a class AND in no way did it interfere with any of the other 50 Competition classes…would you still oppose it?  Would you still be so vocally opposed to this idea that it would have no hope of ever even being considered?

Clearly the future of Road racing is dependent on trying new ideas…maybe even an idea outside of our comfort zone to get kart counts back to the critical mass of paying expenses. Because, unless that happens this all becomes academic.

So…if there are enough of us who would show up and run such a class AND in no way did it interfere with any of the other 50 Competition classes you are running in…would you still oppose it?

[Jeff Collier]

Greg…if I understand you…you would oppose the idea to create any new classes using the bracket racing concept even with the other classes remaining in place. … even if it would increase kart counts ? (Which is the problem we are trying to address).

You would oppose the idea even if the 1:50 Bracket Class at Roebling Road could run at the same time as Yamaha Sportsman (if that class even exist anymore) thus not requiring any new races to compete with those already running…

So this is basically a disagreement in the philosophy of what constitutes racing.

Okay…wow…I’m kinda out of ideas then.

I would contend that almost every non safety related rule in the rule book is there to control speed and in some way and to equalize, thus maximize the competition. So if those rules are there to limit speed and maximize competition, is it such a stretch to simply limit speed on the front end?  And for the same reason – to maximize competition.

Maybe I should be totally honest here. My equipment is now old…I mean I’m still running  Yamahas…LOL. Does anyone  seriously think I am going to call John Q Kart Shop and order the latest and greatest kart…spend more money the next few races trying to figure out how to outrun all the other six karts in my class? I don’t think so. Been there. Done that. Have the T-Shirt.

Create a class where I can bring my kart…just like it is…and have some reasonable chance of being in a dogfight… and I might even buy some new tires and freshen the engine and show up.  I might even buy a new engine after a few races. And I would probably bring the sons and grandsons if it turned out to be fun. Maybe even buy them a kart so they can go race with granddad.

But if you guys don’t want me and my obsolete equipment to come and have fun (race in a class with a likely chance of a dogfight) … hey I can keep my ass at home. Thats what I’ve been doing. I don’t think I am alone.

PS. I do NOT think the solution is to create yet another class for obsolete Yamaha Sportsman karts where I can enjoy running with the other two guys.

 

[Jeff Collier]

I have read all the post under this heading.  I think the real question to ask is can Road Racing survive period. Its been years since I attended a road racing event. I have two race ready karts with Yamahas and use to run Sportsman Heavy. At least they were race ready at one time. LOL. I still crank them and keep fresh fuel in them just in case the urge strikes someday. Let me give a little background for perspective – raced at the first WKA Daytona race back in the 1970’s and many since. Finished in the top ten in National points once or twice (can’t remember). Won several regional races. I honestly enjoyed SKC , WKC, and Big South over the years and made many friends.

Back to the question: can Road Racing survive period. As I have read all these post, I asked myself what happened to me. Why did I quit? Why did me and my kids stop coming? As I think about it, The only answer I can come up with is it ceased to be fun. When there were big classes and lots of karts in the 1980s you always ended up during the race in a group about your speed and driving ability and it was fun racing each other. The last few times I raced I found myself in a small class spending practically all the race faster than some, slower than others racing by myself. Practice became more fun than the races because there were more karts on the track and actual people to race with.

These days I race with Chumpcar. Its like one big WKA practice session in the old days with all sizes and makes of cars  and all levels of driver talent- some faster some slower and lots of passing and close racing. It is fun. More bluntly – its actually a blast.

Thats what I missed when I stopped kart road racing. I raced at Roebling Road years ago in a regional and we had a dog fight between six karts for third place. It is one of my favorite memories and it was that kind of close competition between several karts that brought me back race after race. When that stopped I stopped coming and went somewhere else.

How do we fix this now with so many classes and low entries in each class? I don’t know but here is one  suggestion. Create classes based on speed/lap times so that you once again group larger numbers of karts who race at about the same speed. Does it matter if you put sportsman, can, and pipes of varying weights and engines in the same class if they all are running similar lap times. Whats an average lap time at Roebling? 1:50 (I don’t remember). Create a 1:50 class. A 2:00 class. A 1:40 class. One simple rule. Exceed the minimum laptime and you are Dqed. Otherwise run what you brung with the strategy being to set your kart and engine up to run comfortably just under the minimum lap time. This would guarantee a class of similar speed karts racing against each other for the win.

I’m not suggesting replace the current class structure for those who want to spend the money time and have the talent to be the fastest in their particular sandbox. Just create a few classes where the purpose of the class is to bring as many karts of similar speeds into the same class so that several karters can race with each other. Maybe someday we will have 60-100 karts starting a single road race class again like the old days and there will be no need for unorthodox ideas like this one. But until then, find a way to bring the fun back. And then I’ll be back.

[Jeff Collier]

Greg and others…I once built a better mousetrap. I was substantially faster than everyone else. And I got Dqed for it…was totally legal by the rules and got Dqed. Was told by those who owned the sandbox that 80,000 spectators were not going to pay to watch me lap the field every 10 laps. As a result of running too fast, I got my very own restrictor plate to slow me down. True racing is NOT about speed…its about competition. My point is…if the race is not fun and competitive (I think those words are interchangeable for the racer)…if the race is not fun for those who come to race they are not going to continue to pay to race (or watch) for long. Its not all about being the fastest in your sandbox. My favorite karting road race of all time was a dogfight for third. It was the dogfight, the close competition I enjoyed and why I kept coming back.

I hadn’t read ekartingnews in years. Hadn’t posted in years. But this particular topic caught my eye. I use to love to road race karts and traveled all over the country doing it. But my kids and I stopped and I wanted to share with those of you interested in this topic why. It was no longer fun. Winning a trophy for finishing first in a class with three entries where I lapped the two other competitors is a hollow victory at best.  I know, I did it. Fastest yes – fun no. Its why I quit – there was nothing fun about that.

Before anyone poo poos the idea of bracket racing as a solution, visit your local drag strip and see how it works for them.  I’m pretty sure that most local drag strips are still open today because this type of racing brings in tons of cars –  I know because there is a drag strip two miles from my house. They race 2 nights a week and are packed out.

Whats been suggested here with bracket racing is a slight adjustment of that idea to fit road racing. As Higgings suggested if you join a bracket slightly faster than your best laptime, you will have to drive your ass off to win. And you will be racing several other guys doing the same thing. Thats what I miss and thats what would bring me and my boys back to the track. Fun…just plain old fun (wheel to wheel competition). Thats a perspective I saw missing from this discussion.

For those of you who want classes…at least make it real. Any class without 15 entries should end. I agree with Higgins on this and if you are old school just stay in the established classes. Nobody is suggesting do away with them except when there is no one in them. But I will wager if you have the choice to run a class and spend the entire race riding by yourself or choose a class structured to create a dogfight for the win…IMHO a true old school racer will pick the latter. Even with the possibility of that dreaded  DQ.

To continue to do the same thing…and expect different results…well we all know what that is.

Anyhow for those who are at least willing to consider the idea, read on. Not all of this drag racing stuff can apply but the concept with a few modifications could. This is from the Wikipedia article on Bracket racing:
The effect of the bracket racing rules is to place a premium on consistency of performance of the driver and car rather than on raw speed, which in turn makes victory much less dependent on large infusions of money, and more dependent on mechanical and driving skill, such as reaction times, shifting abilities, and ability to control the car. Therefore, bracket racing (using the aforementioned handicapping system) is popular with casual weekend racers. Some will even drive their vehicles to the track, race them, and then simply drive them home.

This format allows for a wide variety of cars racing against each other. While traditional drag racing separates cars into a wide variety of classes based on power and weight, bracket racing classes can be simpler, and can accommodate any vehicle with basic technical/safety inspection. Race events organized in this way are sometimes called “run-what-ya-brung”…

Breaking out is when a racer manages to cross the finish line in less time that the one he dialed-in beforehand.

If only one car “breaks out”, it is disqualified and the other one wins by default…

This eliminates any advantage from bending the rules by putting a slow dial-in time on the windshield to … However, some racers will purposely dial a slower time and then let off of the throttle or use their brakes near the end of the track in an attempt to trick the other driver into breaking out. This racing technique is called sandbagging and, although useful and technically legal (not always), is looked down upon at most amateur events as a form of cheating and un-sportsman like conduct. In some track clubs, a sign of obvious sandbagging (letting off the throttle near the finish line or applying the brakes to comply with the dial-in time) earns an immediate disqualification from the event.

Taken from Wikipedia article on Bracket racing…has been highly successful in drag racing…can it be adapted to kart road racing?

[Author]

Posts