[Richard Gordon]

So with losing .5″ on each front tire of contact patch it also narrows the front track width 1″. So I should need to move the fronts out .5″ on each side? Also the rear gained 1″ per wheel so in order to get the same rear track width I should pull the rear wheels in 1″ on both sides? This would take the track width back to the way it was on the Burris tires. Does this sound like a good idea?  Also, wouldn’t the front lose some grip due to the tires being narrower?  The rear should gain from the extra rubber?

[Richard Gordon]

Not sure on where they are better?  Engine seems to run fine and is hitting the limiter at 6050 at about the same point as everyone else on the longest strait.  Think I really need to work on side bite.  The Burris tires were feathering on the inside edge about equally all around.  The Duros are doing nothing.  What would be the best way to get side bite without binding the chassis up?

[Richard Gordon]

It might need the clutch cleaned as it has run a couple of races since it was apart, but when we put the Duros on it was a lot harder to drive.  My son spun out a bunch of times when he has rarely spun before.  Made some psi adjustments and got it better, but it just seems to lack grip.  Going to try wider front track and. Narrower rear.  Might also put the front torsion bar in.

[Richard Gordon]

Yep, not sure of what to do differently driving wise, but need to try something different.  Also think something is missing from the set up.  Will try a low grip set up to the extreme and back off from there to see what happens.  Did get good info from a trusted source on psi and it is at the low and high of the range we used.  Some like the high and some the low.  Would guess that a lot would be dependent on the kart setup?  I’m going to try testing without the extra weight since I have good numbers on the scale that way and know it did work work well before.  Then scale with the extra lead bolted on to see where it’s at.  Have the kart stored at the track right now and can’t weigh it until we bring it home.

[Richard Gordon]

The guys and gals that have been running for a while are 1.5 seconds faster with the same tire.  Some are even heavier than us and they are all bunched up running about the same speed.  Talked to one of the drivers and they said they had the same problem when they switched to the Duro tire from MG whites. Said it took a lot of testing and practice to learn to drive with the tire and set up the kart.  Kart is brand new with 2 races on it now, so don’t think there is anything wrong with the kart other than set up.  One other big difference is the fronts are a total of 2″ narrower and the rears are 2″ wider (both tires combined) than the Burris.  Thinking to use a green track, low grip set up?  Have tried different pressures.  Anywhere from 12-26 psi.  Made a little difference in time (few tenths) and made it easier to drive, but no big gains.

[Richard Gordon]

Mostly feels like the front end is over responsive then the rear breaks loose.  Going down hill into off camber turns it is very tight and won’t turn.  One of those is a high speed turn.  The other tight and slow.  I drove it and my son. We had the same times within .3 seconds.  He was much faster when we ran the other tires on it with similar weather and track conditions.  Over 3 seconds a lap with same driver and set up.  Only difference was tires and added 19lbs of lead to make class weight.  5 lbs in front of tank on floor, 7 on lower left front of seat, and 7 on back of seat up high a little off center to the left.  I didn’t get to scale with the weights since we didn’t know about the weight limit until we got to the track.

[Richard Gordon]

Would the setup be similar to an SL spec tire?  Would rear track be narrow, front wide, chassis stiffer in front, rear, CGH raised, more weight forward or back?  How about front end geo?  More, less Ackerman, more or less toe, more or less caster, camber?

[Richard Gordon]

Footage of one lap.  Entering turn at 42 seconds into the video.  https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL37B9CA045D9E5B7B&v=R4gIFSfH21c

[Richard Gordon]

That makes sense.  Kind of pitch it in and hammer it.  Was thinking this might work.  It would also leave me set up better for the next turn and keep it from binding up around the turn.  I’ll post some footage from you tube soon.  None from my class, but should give an idea.

[Richard Gordon]

Guess answer I’m looking for is where/when to brake, where to hit apex, where to accelerate?  Have been trying to make the turn as wide as possible with wide entry and exit.  Hitting the apex at the center of the turn when you crest the hill.  Turn is so tight that it is hard to get the kart to rotate enough because you have to slow down so much.  Tough since there are several high speed corners and long straits.  Finding a balance with the handling and gearing is not easy.

[Richard Gordon]

If standard black slide engine, it will hit the limiter around 6050-6100 rpm.  Peak HP is around 5200-5300, but you will want to hit the limiter if you have any long straits.  If you are restricted to a drum clutch the Inferno Flame works well and is a decent price.

[Richard Gordon]

My son has a standard length Brava 4.11 and he is a little over 6′ tall.  Not a problem with fitment and it is fast.  If you are looking at the 2 cycle chassis, one made for 100cc or lighter driver would probably work best.  Just make sure you are going to have enough room to mount the clutch inboard as most 2 strokes run outboard and might not offer the proper clearance without modifying the seat mounts.  As far as price, the Ignite is probably the best deal at under $4K for a turn key LO206.  Comet Kart Sales makes the Eagle which is a good design.  It also comes as an extended version and the price is right.  The extensions on some karts are just moving the pedals forward and extending the front bumper.  The Margay and Eagle have a longer chassis, I believe.  I know the Margay does for sure.

 

[Richard Gordon]

No problem Freddy.  You have given me useful advice in the past and I appreciated it.  Sorry to be so stand offish.  I figured you guys are probably running at the national level.  I would expect this level to be expensive.  It should be since it is the top tier of karting in the U.S.  Maybe the karts are worth it.  Just seems like everything in karting went up a bunch since I last did it and also compared to the various car series I raced in.  The cost of running even local club events in most 2 cycle classes is pretty steep.  This is why I decided to go the LO206 route.  Spec tire, cheap pump gas, and low engine maintenance with a sealed motor made a lot of sense to me financially.  At some point we might end up with a TaG or stock moto, but for now the LO206 will be fun and a good way to get into sprint kart racing.  For now, just with our club.  Maybe in a regional series at some point.  Problem for us is the distance to the other tracks.  All over 5 hours one way.  Local track is still 2 hours one way.

[Richard Gordon]

Care to tells us how much you spend in 1 year for karting?  Also, what level are you racing at?  Still no explanation why a bare frame can run up to $3k. Numbers are not there.  Seems like the name and its reputation will dictate the price.  People are willing to pay that much if they perceive that it gives them .1 seconds advantage over the competition?  I have been racing something since the early 80’s.  I have won a lot of races in many different disciplines from MX to nationally sanctioned cars.  Have won at the regional, state and local levels.  Have qualified in national events, etc.  I have always been able to do it on a shoe string budget.  If you think you he who spends the most wins, you are part of the reason that everything is so expensive.  People with attitudes like your’s will kill the sport in the long run.  Sorry, but couldn’t resist.

[Richard Gordon]

Yes, how much does the tubing cost in one frame?  How much does it cost to bend and cut the tubing?  How much does it cost to weld it together?  Small robots and jigs can be used for the whole process.  I’ve seen it done for bicycle frames.  We have a makers space that has a small robot that moved the frame in different positions for the welder to weld it up.  Seems like a decent rolling chassis can be made for $1500-2000 that would be a good starter kart and still be competitive at the local/regional level.  How about the cadet karts?  Why are they so much cheaper?  Has almost the same amount of material and very similar components/design.  It just doesn’t add up.

Seems like the current system for someone starting out, is to buy someones used equipment.  Thats all well and good, but there is something said for buying new chassis and getting everything set up for the driver.  Instead of having to adjust to what is already put together.  You learn a lot more from putting a new kart together yourself.  Also, you don’t know what you are getting when you buy most used karts.  A lot out there is probably used up and won’t ever work that well anymore.  This will result in frustration for the new owner and they will probably quit.  Most new karts are out of range price wise for some one wanted to get into the sport.  Seems like this is what is laking in the industry.  A cheap way to get started.  At least there are a few companies starting to address this issue.

[Richard Gordon]

My personal preference is to buy a U.S. made chassis.  Like to keep people employed. 2nd choice is EU made.  But if you look at the mountain bike industry almost all of the top brands have their frames made in Taiwan.  Must be cost effective and they make a quality product.  The R&D is usually done in the U.S. or EU, but the final production is in Taiwan.  So I’m pretty sure that the cost can be lowered and the quality retained.  There might not be enough volume to make this a reality though or this would have already be the case.  I do like what Margay is doing with the Ignite.  Race ready with LO206 for unde $4k.  Kart does not have all the bells and whistles, but would a great way to start racing on the cheap.  I do see the Extreme karts which are made in Italy starting at $2300.  Throw a Fireball kit on it and you have a cheap TaG set up.  The Extreme and Eagle are the only chassis unde $3k that I have seen.  Not sure how good or competitive the set up would be, but also a great price point for entry level.  Seems like more of this is needed to get people into the sport.

[Richard Gordon]

If you insist on doing this, you would be better off finding a very large, open parking lot.  I have broken in race car motors in abandoned shipping lot before.  No other vehicles and no obstacles to hit.  I did have one onlooker show up, but he was just interested in the car.  Otherwise, go to a track.  Most tracks will allow track time.  Our track is open 7 days a week and no one is there during the week in the morning, so I have the track to myself for $60.  Can run as fast or slow as needed in a safe environment.n

[Richard Gordon]

Sounds lean.  Set gap to .040″.  Correct, if using B&S rules you can’t change the jet.  You can change the needle setting.  Drop the clip down on the needle to richen the mixture.

[Richard Gordon]

Did see that Comet sales has the Eagle which is a copy of an Arrow for around $2500.  Made in U.S. from imported chromoly.  Seems more reasonable, but has some cheaper components.  Seems like there used to be a lot more American made chassis around.  And the Zip was made in the UK back in 1990.  Now have a Margay which has some EU components like the axle.  It retails for $3795 without tires.

[Richard Gordon]

Yes, the Legend was a used car.  New, turn key was $12500.  Still not bad considering what you got.  Car racing has more overhead.  Need a larger tow vehicle, larger trailer, more tools and equipment, and space to store it all.  Parts for most of the spec racers and entry level classes are actually cheaper for cars.  You can build a 350 Chevy stroker 383 alky motor with 13:1 compression that puts out almost 600 hp for around $5000.  The circle track stuff gets expensive when it comes to fuel and lots of broken stuff.  Wheels, tires, tie rod ends, swage tubes, and body work take a beating.  I do think karts are a great learning tool for a new driver and a ton of fun.  And to keep cost down, I chose the LO206 class at our local track that uses a spec tire.  So I got all new kart and engine, with a used suit and gear (new Snell helmet), and used trailer all for a little over $3000.  Pump gas and the tires will last an entire season (Duro rental tire).  Not bad.  Wish we could run TaG, but that class is super expensive.  Motors $3000+, tires $250 a race weekend, $100 in fuel each weekend, etc.  How can your average joe afford to do this as a hobby?

[Richard Gordon]

Guess there are some differences.  Didn’t have the full coverage body work and the wheels were 3 piece.  Still should be less than $2500 though.  The age of credit must have made it possible?  Doesn’t seem like salaries have increased that much.  I know mine hasn’t gone up hardly any since I started working full time in the mid 90s.  I got lucky and won an auction on EBay for a new 2013 roller for $1625.  There is no way that I could have afforded to buy a new kart otherwise.

[Richard Gordon]

Actually did move the spindle back to neutral and then got the numbers for cross. Will see how the rear percentage does. Seems like the LO206 needs more front. Most run around 53-55% rear. The chassis I have likes more rear. Got a good idea of where the weight needs to be bolted, but will play around with it on the scales and see what happens.

[Richard Gordon]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, had cross weight issues. Had to tweek the frame by bouncing on the RF. Is where I want it now so I can get the left and front where I want with added weight. Since it was new, didn’t think it would be out of square. Did double check the front end settings and the tires were all good. Made sure the scales were totally level too. Should be good once I get the lead I ordered. Hope to get to the track next week to test it out.

[Richard Gordon]

We used to run WKA back in the 80s.  Had light, medium, and heavy classes for the entry level stock class.  Always had plenty of karts in each.  Only time you had to bolt a bunch of lead on is if you chose to run the next weight up class (some would run 2 classes with the same kart).  Jr class was one weight with stock engine or a limited modified and age 12 up to 18.  Now the tracks around Denver are running l206 with 3 weight classes.  Is working well.  Seems like this is what is needed for the stock classes.

[Richard Gordon]

Was told the AX7 was from around 2010.  Looks like it actually is from before 2002?  Think the CRG is a much better choice.  What is the difference in a KT and the -1B?  Would this chassis work with 4 cycle fit wise?  What size driver generally fit in a CRG without the porch extension?  There are so many kart models out there.  It is over whelming and not a lot of data online.

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