[Thomas Barth]

Sorry guys,

My mistake. Pete and I are discussing what we will do to replace his motor.

tdb/GFK

[Thomas Barth]

Thanks Pete for airing your laundry out on EKN. I have not received the insurance check from UPS yet as I told you. I also had decided to find another engine and put it in top shape.

(I don’t know where you are getting your pricing but it boggles the mind that a K9B is worth $2500.00. Did you pay that much for a used KZ?)

I am at the point now where I think you should sue me. If I have to watch you drag this through the mud, I’m all for it. I have no control over how UPS handles the claim. Hopefully the check comes soon. But in the meantime I suggest that you get some hard evidence together that your K9B is worth 2K+.

You’re probably right, you should have found a reputable re-builder.

A customer of mine in West Chester physically searched the address with no luck.

I would apologize but I did nothing wrong. I shipped your engine and it was lost by the shipper. I understand I am legally responsible. We may have to let that play out.

tdb/GFK

[Thomas Barth]

This how I do it (Dellorto).

Before installing carb, look from rear at slide….adjust just a little gap in slide…set idle/air to 2 – 2 1/2 turns out….install carb, start engine set idle at preferred idle speed…accelerate engine quickly…if there is hesitation set needle clip to top position (lean accel setting)…normally engine will accelerate cleanly when you get to this point. If not adjust idle/air screw until accel is clean. Note, the clip position is used to raise or lower needle for timing of fuel to engine when accelerating (does not alter mixture – just timing).

[Thomas Barth]

Charles,

Look up Dan Barth when you get to Auburn Hills. He works at Chrysler and drives a KZ.

[Thomas Barth]

Bob,

Check out GFK face book on greenflag.net. There are (3) ladies who regularly post.

Two from Germany and one from Italy. One in karting two in cars. I believe there are more are in karting. U.S. has some good females in the sport. Some are and some could be excellent shifter drivers.

[Thomas Barth]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Bob Baldwin wrote:</div>
Don’t take this the wrong way The title may sound strange ,BUT as a Published Author Surprise!! NOT looking for the Next “Danica Patrick ” but will be doing an article on the above in karting . I would prefer that they be at the Intermediate or advanced level . If you know of such have them PM me Thanks Bob Baldwin PS : keep the weird stuff to yourselves .

[Thomas Barth]

Andrew,

Had a customer with the same problem. I believe he solved it by checking the float arm and pivot pin. I’ll check with him and let you know.

 

[Thomas Barth]

Stay calm and Drive KZ

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

I spent 37 years in the auto industry, most of it in manufacturing and assembly. I know a assembly plant when I see one. I was in Pesaro, Italy and visited the TM plant. It is a manufacturing plant dedicated to kart engines and ta da!…. motorcycles. Thought you would like that.

[Thomas Barth]

Troy, go for it!!

Chris, someone under contract from Honda assembles 125 cc shifter engines and calls them kart engines. When parts are gone engine is gone.

This is what ticks me off about posters who have no or little knowledge of the subject:

There are no 2.5K spec motos.

KZ (ICC) is easy to tune. What’s to tune?

I maintain more KZ engines than any other shop in the U.S. The engine is work of art, easy to disassemble and reassemble. Someone out there in Honda land say it isn’t so.

Does not cost and arm and leg to repair or run.

The KZ does NOT require a tuner to set up. The carb is essentially a one time set up. Select a gear and go racing.

 

PS. got two calls today looking for TM KZ10 engine info.

 

[Thomas Barth]

Steen, been to Europe a couple of times Uncle Sam sent me once so I am familiar  with the area. Yes, I am referring to proximity of tracks for most Europeans.

Look at it this way Italy is approximately 114K  square miles in area compared to Texas 269K square miles. But in Italy there is probably close to 70 kart tracks. I’m not sure if we have 70 sprint tracks in the whole of the U.S. A. Just trying to point out that karting in the U.S. has different parameters than Europe.

Also I tried to answer the questions posed by Derek as honestly as I could from my perspective. Of course I am partial to the KZ. I invite anyone out there to provide a rebuttal to my views or, the reasons why Derek should go with Honda.

Honda no longer produces CR125 motorcycles. Tell me why they would continue to produce engines especially since the company has never produced 125cc kart shifter engines.

 

Just tryin’ to defend my position by giving Derek the facts about real kart engines (KZ) and the imposter, dirt bike engines.

[Thomas Barth]

Derek,

I will try to answer the questions you pose with some degree of authenticity. I have serviced the KZ (ICC) shifter engine for approximately 13 years. Yes, I am biased toward the KZ.

1. Performance (Is ICC KZ a better performing engine or does Stock Moto outshine it?)

YES!, the KZ is a bona fide kart shifter engine. It will out perform the spec moto.  That’s why moto has it’s own class.

2. Maintenance (What are typical maintenance costs with Stock Moto vs ICC and how long can you typically run each engine without having to replace something?)

I am not familiar with the stock moto but I believe it should be a fairly low maintenance. Maintenance schedule will depend on hours/gallons of fuel put through engine. Example – a KZ lower end  bearing (rod) will need replacing after approximately 55 gallons of fuel. A piston in a kZ will go for 10 to 15 gallons, (pistons are amazingly sturdy components), change ring / bearing and keep on ‘truckin’.

3. Cost (Which cost more and is the added expense worth it?)

If the stock moto is assembled as specified by SKUSA rules then the cost will be in the neighborhood of 3K. Remember a spec moto is a conglomeration of Honda engine parts with out sourced accessories (pipe, mount etc.)

The KZ comes as a complete package including pipe, silencer, carb etc. The cost for a new KZ10B – 5K. Yes, there is a cost difference favoring the moto but than again we comparing apples to oranges. If you have driven a moto but not the KZ, the difference  in performance will help you make up your mind.

4. If cost wasn’t an issue which would you prefer just based on sheer performance?

See above.

5. If you chose ICC/KZ which manufacturer would you suggest?

All KZ makes available in U.S. are very good. TM is probably most prevalent today.

6. Is the ICC/KZ class still popular in your area of the country?

My area of the country is the Great Lakes region. For us the venue is pretty much Road Racing.  I can attend  5 different road racing course in my region. My guess is that a typical event, the moto/KZ  attendance is roughly 50/50.

You will need to be aware of the tracks in your area and what classes they offer. If there is a shifter class, chances are it includes KZ’s. One thing to remember is the U.S. is a very large in geographical area compared to Europe (KZ’s). Unless you have a major track near you it might be slim pickin’s trying to find a suitable venue near enough to participate regularly..

As I said, I am definitely pro KZ. My devotion to KZ comes partly from my engineering background, from ease of maintenance and the awesome performance of the KZ shifter kart. I cannot truthfully say that the KZ is cheaper than the moto from a service standpoint. I have never done a cost comparison. Considering that the moto ( CR125) is no longer in production Even though the Honda supporters rave about the endless supply of parts left over from the manufacture of motocross bikes and I still have a problem with no factory support such as design changes that improve reliability, performance and service. Remember, what you see is what you get, forever.

Just callin’ it the way I see it. I’m sure there will be retaliation.

 

[Thomas Barth]

We won’t see Honda 4 stroke on a kart anytime soon (thank the Lord for little favors). And when it does come the service manual will look like the yellow pages.

Why the concern about service manuals anyway? Are the Hondas that complicated?

[Thomas Barth]

and  how do the bearings get lubricated?

Just did the bottom end on TM K9B today. I hadn’t paid much attention to the gearbox layout before I found out some tuners don’t use oil. So I looked at bearing placement and realized that the C/L of the (4) main bearings (main shaft, secondary shaft) in the box are located above the oil level screw hole. The only way that the bearings can get lube is from splash. So it appears that lubing the gears and bearings is not a big deal.

[Thomas Barth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZ1_(karting)

Some more info on KZ.

[Thomas Barth]

And you believed him?

Yes, I believe him!

The other side of the pond is where all the ‘secrets’ are.

And how do the bearings get lubricated?

If you have done maintenance to the KZ you will find that the some of the GB bearings are sealed, some are not. The gear box shafts turn at approximately 3500 rpm. The bearings will hold up fine without lube.

My son tells me I provided a KZ for a couple of races a few years back. No oil in gearbox. Never found out until I took engine down.

Chris you need to get up to speed.

[Thomas Barth]

Good news guys! Just got an email from KZ karter in Norway. His son runs a KZ10B. They rented a engine from a well know tuner for a big race. He checked out the set up and found that he (tuner) doesn’t run any oil in gearbox!!!

But I’m sure they must process gears or treat with a special lube prior to event.

[Thomas Barth]

gears- and for how many hours this will last- without adding oil?</span></p>

[Thomas Barth]

 

 

[Thomas Barth]

For automobiles the minimum period for building service parts is 7 years I believe. Don’t know if it’s same for motorcycles.

[Thomas Barth]

Brian,

 

Do you have a vent hose installed on the vent tubes. You can run a tube from one vent up and over carb top, down to other tube. Put breather slit in hose at top.

[Thomas Barth]

Howie said:

This is funny. An argument about Kart racing motors by two guys who don’t race

Howie, I think I was driving full size race cars before you were born.

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

You don’t read so well.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0042/0102/files/KZ10_homologation.pdf?1285605011

There is also the parts list from the factory including part number, part description and illustration. If that isn’t enough the web is loaded with technical data relating to all KZ engines

Besides we’re comparing apples to oranges. A kart engine vs a motorcycle engine. Take your Honda manual to a dirt bike site, maybe someone there will be interested.

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

If you need a manual maybe you should keep your hands off.

The mechanic needs a parts list showing only the data needed to replace parts.

Please tell me what you think the mechanic needs to do the above.

[Thomas Barth]

Bob,

 

TM offers a package that includes:

tuned cylinder

SKF roller bearings  (or)

hybrid ceramic ball bearings

22mm crankshaft

polished 30mm carburetor

carbon fiber silencer 

special connecting rod for 20mm crank

I’m sure the other makes off similar packages.

 

Tim, not so much a load of crap. It pretty much happens that way in every “spec” class. That’s why so many good ideas for “equalizer” classes, (Yamaha, moto, ICC, stock moto, TaG) soon turn out to be the most expensive class to run. It’s simply the natural progression.

Amen Brian!

Again, the beauty of KZ is you get what you pay for. If you want to go faster pay more money

 

Also note that KZ internationally (outside North America) use super soft tires in championship races. A KZ race on the international scene is an awesome race to watch.

 

[Author]

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