[Dennis Chappell]

Peter

Dates are marked on calendar and can’t wait for another fun year with this series. If anyone has not run this series you must try it.

Dennis

[Mike Arnold]

Any races planned for gateway?

 

Mike

[Jeff Salak]

Mike, dont think the turnout was good enough last year to keep Gateway on the schedule. People came for Sat race, then vanished and packed up for Sunday. Maybe cause of Mothers Day. Not sure if a different weekend would help. But we wont know that answer this year

[Mike Arnold]

Jeff,

Thanks!

Considering the Blackhawk race in late May.  Is there a Stock Honda class and if so what would the gearing be for this track?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Chad Landers]

I really like Gateway.  I think the timing for the event last year was bad though.  Being Mother’s Day and all.  That placed used to get good turnouts when we had decent weekends.

What happened to the Milwaukee Mile? I’d kind of like to go back.  It is centrally located for most of our driver base.

Did we all just decide is wasn’t karting friendly?  I know some of the entries on and off the oval were sketchy, but what if we got some of new style safety barriers that we didn’t have back then.

I should be at both of the Blackhawk races. But not looking too likely on the Michigan ones.

[Mike Arnold]

James,

 

Thanks for the gearing advise.  I hope we can make it !

 

Mike

[Jeff Salak]

Well said Peter.
Im very happy with the tracks CES race on. Happy that we dont race at tracks with lots of concrete anymore. Those tracks are designed for cars/safety for spectators. Not karts to run into any problems.

Also happy we dont run on some of the tracks KART MARS races on. Those temp road courses that they race on are just plain nuts!

Chad you should try and make Grattan. Its the most fun track period!

[Keith Bridgeman]

It would by nice to see CES and KART have a joint race or two.  The KART tracks are actually closer to MN for me then going to MI.

[Chad Landers]

Jeff,  I love Grattan, but it is very long haul for me.  Going down around Chicago an then back up.  Plus I have a hard time getting enough days off in a row to go that far. I’ve looked into taking the ferry across, but they charge so much with a trailer.

I may try and hook up with Scott in Fondy and carpool over.  But not having all my parts and tools would kind of suck.  I know we could all share stuff and we all wouldn’t care either way. We are all just helpful like that.  I’d like to at least try it once.

My plan is to make both Blackhawk races for sure.  Might try a Michigan one if time allows.  But I’m actually looking forward to the dreaded dirt roundy round kart I bough this summer.  I’ve got 3 tracks within an hour and half of me.

[Peter Zambos]

Hmm.  Okay, I hadn’t seen Lake Garnett before.  I hold the same position, Jeff, I don’t think I could run that track with some of the obstacles that lie just off course.

[Glen Luening]

Lake Garnett looks a little iffy. But that being said Kart and Marrs have a great group. some of the other tracks are very nice. Guys lets face it if we don’t start to find more places to run and more competitors, karting is going to fade away. CES guys don’t think that everything is so perfect. We are in trouble if we don’t start to run with other groups to get more entries. Lets face it the cost of track rentals is going up and up. CES is a great group but we need to do something or we will not be around in a the years to come. It sure is nice to only have to drive an hour to a race but not going to last. My suggestion is to do away with Gingerman, since no one really seem to care to the joint but a few, and run with Dart, Kart, Mkc someone, possibly at Mid Ohio or some other course they run.

I almost went to the race in Topeka this year and the only that keep me from going was the lack of a heavy shifter class. My fat a$$ can’t compete with the CIK youngsters and light weights. But maybe next year.

[Kelly Read]

Peter,

KART & CES didn’t have a joint race at Iowa. We was suppose to but I’m not going to say on here why it didn’t happen but I can say that it wasn”t due to KART/MARRS. I did take the kids to Iowa for the CES event they had before the joint event that we were going to have to see what the track was like, gearing, etc to bring back to our racers for when we did go back for the joint event.  Brad ran a Tag for Russells and Lindsay ran her Sprint PP kart. Fun track for a sprinter but not for a laydown. As the kids said, kinda harry going into infield off the oval and was spooky when you got close or hit the alligators in the turns in the infield with the direction they ran (clockwise). NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!!

As for joint races. One who was a big part when we had joint races with MKC (when Cole was in charge) then Davey with CES at Gateway and Milwakee and when we went to Road America with BKC for 3 years,  our group had a blast. Can it happen again, SURE!! Issue would be to find the right track (midway if possible), right date (not interfer with other race dates), right people promoting  AND, racers supporting it. When I say support by the racers, I mean being there both days. When racers run only one day and head home on Sunday, that HURTS !!!!

Tracks like Garnett may not be the best but, it does give us an opputunity to race 7-8 times a year in our area. I myself have been there racing since 1972 and I will say, things have changed since back then at that track. We used to not have the chicane at the end of the back straight leading to the spillway along with some areas didn’t have the barriers they do today.  Back then we had no bodywork and all classes were way larger then any of us see today.  Bottom line, all tracks have something that some racers just won’t attend and I truely understand that.

What us road racers do need to do is, SUPPORT any events we can or RR will be gone some day!!!

 

Glen,

Take it you are talking of a G125 class?? FYI, I got a group talking of coming to Hastings and Heartland park Topeka  from MI and if so, we plan to add this class. KART/MARRS is always willing to add classes if the class is supported at any of there events. Just a call, e-mail, etc can make this happen.

We all need some type organization but without the racers, we don’t need them!!!

[Brian Wilhelm]

Garnett and Afton are simply no more dangerous than the “rovals”. Why??? If I get out of shape and go off, I can maybe miss a tree, culvert, etc., but there is no way I can miss a wall.

[Mike Hoff]

 

Great to see CES and others with their schedules out, which makes it easier to plan the year and schedule vacations.

As mentioned, we all need to support road racing courses or they won’t be around.  The one I miss the most is Road America when hosted by Badger with close to 1000 entrants.  Doubt we will ever go back and that is a shame for those who never got a chance to race on it.

My dad and I have raced with CES and last few years with KART/MARRS.  BlackHawk is one of my favorites.

Don’t judge Afton and Garnett too quickly or from the videos.  The first time we saw the tracks (drove around in our truck) we thought OMG how do they race here.  After racing on them, had a different perspective…still need to respect the track, speeds we carry, fellow racers, and most importantly have fun.

Brian, I never thought about the “missing a tree” aspect until I saw Kelly do just that a year or so ago.

Thanks

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James McMahon]

I think it’s time to discuss a big midwest event…. For venue I’d suggest Autobahn. Although its expensive to rent, it is located nicely, has good facilities, nice wide track. All of these lend themselves to hosting a good road race event. Blackhawk while awesome to drive, for a big once-off I feel we can safely get more karts out at once at Autobahn.

It’s early days yet, but our group are talking about possibly running Hastings and Topeka in ’14. We’ve been wanted to do Topeka for some time.

My opinion is that entries are spread too thin up in these parts. I’d rather see less events and have bigger ones, but its up to us as drivers to vote with our feet.

[Peter Zambos]

I wouldn’t mind one bit!  I wouldn’t even have to get a hotel room.
If this were to ever happen, I would petition for us to race on the south course.  When we had our one event there we utilized the north course.  Though the racing was great, it had all to do with the depth of field in the TAG class and was in spite of the very simple layout of the north course.  The south course looks like more fun.
Before anyone says, “hey let’s run the combined track,” we can’t.  The Autobahn is required to have at least one of the courses open to it’s members at all times.  At least, that was the case last time I cared to inquire.

As to less, but bigger events, well, we have one part of that equation for next year.

[Glen Luening]

I could not agree more with that James and Peter. I would say lets not do the Gingerman race (since it is always a bust anyway), and maybe get some talking going on with Kelly and his group. Lets get a combined race happening somewhere. Maybe we could run Autobahn, Memphis or even Putnam. But the bottom line is we need more entries for all the clubs or we will all loose out.

Us as club members need to speak our voices to those that run the club. After all this is a business and to have a race that consistently looses money is bad business.

 

Just my two and a half cents worth.

[George Argiris]

The issues are not that we don’t have the tracks and the clubs – we just need people to show up and especially stay on Sunday…..

Guys – each club or area has enough out there, we just need to make sure we all show-up..

Glen – DART has two races in this region each year – Grattan and Mid Ohio – Grattan in May and Mid Ohio in June – Those who say they are drivers need to prove it and show up to Grattan – this is the most true drivers road course in the area.   They re-paved the entire track a few years ago and I was told they were going to get new bathroom and showers in 2014 –  Mid Ohio is awesome – there are always a great turnout, DART does a great job, there are motorcycle races on Sat night to watch and camping is available  – they pulled from Putnum cause nobody showed up and the costs were high –   CES has tried about everything possible – the unfortunate timing on Gateway and the lack of people staying on Sunday hurt –  CES offers races at tracks that both DART and KART/MARRS can join – CES offer a race at Grattan and Gingerman  – both tracks make it easy to both DART members and Michigan Kart Club members – Gingerman is an awesome track – why take away a track – Autobauhn is a good idea but it is not any closer to Blackhawk or Gingerman for the MARRS guys…and the costs are more.  The only fair share for MARRS and CES was Gateway but the timing in my opinion was not planned well….  But yet again where were the MARRS guys on Sat and why did everyone leave on Sunday..   I’m not trying to bash anyone but it is all up to us to show up and support – the CES gang has always been willing to travel – thou those park district tracks in Kansas – in my opinion do not look safe enough for the racing I’ve done for the past years…   it is awesome though that it is a good boost to there club and they get the support.  Although the Topeka event is appealing – however in my case and many others, we cant race there as you don’t allow Rotax – you are missing many including a large shifter group..  Hey Hoff you talk about CES but you have not shown up for the past 3 years or more – why – sorry I had to throw a gab……

Its all about making sure we can road race so put all the BS asside –

BLACKHAWK – BLACKHAWK – that’s all I can say – your an @$%# if you don’t show up…. CES offers 2 chances to race there in a year – Schedules are out so start planning and gathering others to join.

So the long and short is SHOW UP AND STAY THE WEEKEND AND GO VISIT NEW TRACKS – THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WILLING TO SHARE RIDES – SUPPORT ALL THE RACES THAT ARE OFFERED – SUPPORT ALL CLUBS

[Kelly Read]

George

You ask where MARRS was on Saturday?  What event you talking about???? MARRS and CES haven’t had a joint event in several years.

Comments being made about “STAYING” is 100% correct. I don’t care what group you run with but if racers race on Saturday and not stay/enter at least on Sunday, NO WAY any promoter can survive!!!!

[Morgan Schuler]

I’ll be at both Blackhawk’s in TaG Sr but I’m not going to Michigan.

I know MAM in SW Iowa was just sold but has anyone tried to schedule a race there in the past?

What about a joint race at Kansas Speedway? The Grand Am race actually produced great racing for a bullring road course.

[Mike Hoff]

Hey George

And it has gotten harder to make any road racing the last few years as have a 2 and 4 year old who turns 5 in May and sure dad will be looking to put him in a kid kart.

We’ve also been going to some vintage races.  Really wild ride with vintage tires (don’t really turn), no side pods, no front or rear bumpers to speak of…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_PQBMGevvE

I do miss BlackHawk.  I retired the bodywork kart I had.  In tag usa rules isn’t the leopard allowed to be ported….we run stock leopard.

Dad on the other hand loves running his Yamaha CIK and his old kart (almost qualifies for vintage).  Doesn’t use the KPV anymore.

Mike

 

 

[Jeff Metter]

Question …. I would love to come up and race with the CES when my schedule allows me to ..but.. Does Unlimited run a 30 minute race ???

[tony zambos]

Jeff,

for several years now, we’ve run with 15 min for the 4 cycles, 25 min for sprinters, and 40 min for the laydowns. Hope you can make it up here.

 

[Jeff Metter]

Shoot…I am not sure if i can get more than 30 minutes out of a tank of fuel on a 250cc superkart….Darn !!

[Chad Landers]

I want to know why CES doesn’t honor the Rotax seals.  I’ve been asked in the past to break my seal by our tech guy Tim, I think that is his name.  I remember him saying how do I know it is legal or not.  Well the fact that is it sealed and stamped on the Passport shows it is legal.  I had to have Dave Larson come over and tell Tim that it was good and I wasn’t going to break the seal.  I don’t want to pay $200 or whatever it is to re-seal my Rotax.

I know Jeff had to break his seal at the last Blackhawk race. 

If CES follows Tag Usa rules they should honor the Rotax seal.  This is completely un-called for. 

I now run without a seal on my Rotax for this reason, but having to break the seal so the tech guy can tell you it is legal is complete B.S.  If our tech guy wants to break seals then he needs to be Rotax certified so he can re- seal the engine for free instead of passing the cost to the racer.

That is my rant for the day.  Please continue on as normal.

[Chad Landers]

Is anyone planning on running a Briggs LO206 this year?

[James McMahon]

I might bring mine to a race. We’ll see.

[tony zambos]

Chad,

That was a one time deal when the seals were broken. It might have been better coordinated as we did have a certified Rotax engine builder at the track.

[Chad Landers]

James,  let me know if you bring one to Blackhawk.  I’ve got one and I’d bring it if the class size was decent.

Tony,  Like I said before I’ve been asked a few times to break my seal when I had one.  Never had to after bringing Dave over and explaining to Tim there was no need.  I don’t care if you want to break the seal, just don’t make the owner foot the bill.  If one of the few rebuilders that are there will re-seal it at the track then fine.

I know Jeff wasn’t really happy about it and I remember Jim from CKT saying he didn’t have any seals with him at the track at that time.

[Jeff Salak]

Im a Tag guy.
Shifter classes have large/sometimes huge fields at Blackhawk.
Come on out you will have a great time racing and hanging out after the races.
They have a stock honda class.

[James McMahon]

Gateway isnt happening this year, probably not in the near future. Expensive to rent and feedback from drivers that stayed this year was mixed.

CES has Two main shifter classes. CIK125 and G125.  There’s rarely less than 25 shifters on the grid, at blackhawk in August last year we had almost 50.

In CIK 125, Stock Honda’s can run at 375lbs, all others (ICC, KZ Mod) run at 385. Open tires. Run what you like, in a 30min race softies aren’t gonna last :)
The G125 class is for older, more “statured” drivers. 420lbs for all motor packages, 30 years plus. Tires are same as CIK.
IIRC gearing for a stocker at Blackhawk is 18:22/18:23

Stock Honda as a separate class was dropped for ’13 onwards due to lack of interest. If enough drivers got together and regularly turned up, I’m sure that would change. In any case the stockers have no issues getting up to the front of the field.

[Peter Zambos]

Sadly, running on the infields of ovals will, more than likely, be out for a while still.  Now, I speak in an entirely unofficially capacity (btw, I always do, as I’m only a participant), but the primary reasons we don’t run at such facilities anymore are cost and safety.

My understanding is that these places charge quite a bit for their tracks.  As our numbers aren’t what they used to be, we can’t really afford to have the series continue to take another hit in the financial berries.  If we’re able to ever get those numbers back up again, maybe, just maybe we might see them come back.  The same goes for Joliet.  I’m sure if we had numbers like we did in the late 90s, that track might’ve been on the calendar for more than one year.

Concrete walls hurt.  There are a few of us that have become more intimate than we ever planned with concrete walls, and, as a result, there are some reservations when we go to speedways.  Chad, I don’t know the exact reason why we don’t go to Milwaukee, but the Mile is a venue at which a few of us had a rather disagreeable meeting between karter and wall, one of which ending with a long hospital stay.  The transition between infield and oval was never really smooth there, and that transition had a habit of launching karts directly at the wall if taken just so.  I really liked the Mile as well, mostly because of the good, close racing I had there, but also because it often fell on the same weekend as the Harvest Fest.  After you wipe the grease off your self (or not), you could walk through the tunnel and  replace that wrench in your hand with an elephant ear and a microbrew.  Heaven.
If we ever can get back there, I’ll volunteer to bring a bag of sacrerte and a shovel and finally fix that thing myself.

Cheers,
Peter

[Kelly Read]

Jeff,

   I question your satement about the tracks KART/MARRS races on.  You saying that the tracks (2) listed above that CES races at are 100% safe??  NOT

People seem to want to blame the track when something bad happens when a lot of the time it gets down to the DRIVER!!   If the drivers doesn’t RESPECT the track or the racers they are racing with, bad things can happen, correct?? So why blame the track????

Unless you can find a track out in a middle of a field with nothing within 1000′ of the racing surface, there is a potential that someone could hit something. Even with this, you still have the potential for incidents rather it is someone getting on there head from a roll over from sliding out into the grass or contact by another kart.

KART/MARRS has 2 tracks that are called “Temporary” courses that are raced 2 times a year per track (4 races) and 3 others what they call “REAL” tracks. Both the “TEMP” tracks have raced 50+ years for GO-KART racing and have a pretty good safety record.

What it gets down to is, if we all want to road race then there are possibly some tracks that we just can not race as hard on as other tracks and the drivers must respect that particular track. The bright side is KART/MARRS has a 8 race series, how many other groups can say this?? These “TEMP” courses helps KART/MARRS keep the cost down and helps pay for other track costs. I’m happy to be able to race 8 times a year not counting going east 1-2 times a year.

 

[Peter Zambos]

Jeff, Kelly, I actually see both of your perspectives. Though I did mention that uneven transition at the mile, I didn’t see that type of facility as being inherently unsafe. In fact, if one wanted to measure the distance from the racing line to the wall, there would be less distance at GingerMan than at Gateway at their respective last turns. On the other hand, at permanent road courses, there is typically something that slows the progress of the kart before the wall, making it more accommodating to the exposed nature of the kart driver.

So, as a result, I do somewhat agree that a track and it’s limitations must be respected. However, some accommodations can be made so that when the almost inevitable crash happens, the resulting injury is not as great.

Let me also state this: Kelly, the two facilities at which KART/MARRS and C.E.S. held joint ventures, Gateway and Iowa, the accidents resulting in injury there were indeed not directly a result of the track and at no point did I ever feel we were competing under unsafe conditions at those tracks. Kelly, you and KART/MARRS have, by my observations, always acted in the best interest of the karter.

As a participant, I would welcome the idea of our two organizations holding future joint events, as long as there is a good mid-way point for the vast majority of our members. In fact, it’s a pipe dream of mine to have a Midwest karting event that would bring together KART/MARRS, C.E.S. and MKC for something that would be like the S.C.C.A. runoffs. Even better if there was no involvement of the WKA.

A middle-aged boy can dream.

Cheers,

Peter

[Jeff Salak]

Not for me!
Sorry Kelly, nothing against you guys. I just wouldnt race on this track for the life of me. I would come race with you guys if you let Rotax race with the leopards and ran a regular Tag class.

Chad I live Wi/Il border 15 min from 94. We could car pool if you came to my house and go from there. No problem with that.

[Kelly Read]

Morgan,

MAM is just outside of Omaha Nebraska.   KART/MARRS use to race there and CES had an event there once but turnout was real weak for there event. I was told it was to far to travel for a lot of the CES racers. If those from MARRS wouldn’t have showed, it could have been real ugly for Davey.  Track was challenging and fun but some turns were getting REAL bad back then. By what I have been told by someone who lives right there is that the flood they had and normal wear and tear from the big cars, track needs some attention.

As for Kansas Speedway, It’s alot like Gateway’s layout.  I contacted them and the big issue is “DATE AVAILABILTY”. Between other types of racing (both oval & road course), teams renting the track, etc, nothing available for us through 2014.  Another issue was that they say a HANS device is mandatory. After explaining kart racing to them like for a laydown kart for an example, they understand and this could possibly be worked out “IF” a date did come open. Didn’t even talk $$ since no dates available at the time. I am in hopes that someday karts can race there as I have inside contacts  there that I hope can help.

Jeff,

Does CES Unlimited run 45 0r 30?? Dan Davis and a few others who run our 45 minute Unlimited class and have 250 gearboxes have enough fuel to make 45 minutes.  They may have a larger or additional tanks then you possibly??

[Peter Zambos]

Chad, I believe that that event was the only time that seals were broken as a part of regular post race tech.  As you stated, both Dave Larsen and post-tech have been reasonable enough in the past that, unless they feel they have a strong enough reason, they leave the seals well enough alone, so if you bring your position to their attention on a case by case basis, they typically wave the more encompassing tech.  Listen, even though the seals are a good thing, as far as I’m concerned, I still think that breaking them for tech once in a blue moon is a good idea to make sure that each builder is still playing nice.

No one but the builder who built your FR125 in the first place should reseal it, apart from the tech that broke it down in the first place, as the resealer is vouching for the legality of every last little thing that is close off by the seal. Now Perry knows that he should have a few seals with him.  Of course, you could always have your Rotax built by L.A.D. and you would have no worries about that. :)  If you really think that CES is going to reimburse you for the cost of the seal in the economic climate in which they function, I believe you will be   disappointed.  SKUSA had their own issues on whether or not to honor the seals and there was incessant complaining.  As you may have noticed, SKUSA no longer runs the FR125.  Draw your own conclusions.

[James McMahon]

If you’ve ever seen the pic of some of the cranks from “sealed” engines you’ll understand why sometimes they break the seal to check.
I can understand the frustration though and it’s a cost to get it re-sealed too. Be sure to talk to Dave Larson about your concerns. I think CES has a different tech guy this year as well.

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