[Paul Kish]

No Gary I have no questions and pretty much understand what you said.  Thanks for the reply.

_____________________

 

edit:  Gary I intentionally took the easy way out with my reply above and threw you alone too the wolves.

 

I’m not all that dumb on this internet stuff and didn’t want to just leave you out there by yourself.  So I’m adding this to say, I not only understand what you wrote, I think your 100% correct.

By the way you’ve accomplished more in karting then I could ever dream of and I feel humbled you even commented.

I do understand where your coming from when you explain how hard it is to compete with ‘horse jockeys’.  I’m not trying to be rude when I use the words ‘horse jockeys’, it’s just the way it is trying to compete with smaller folks in racing.

Just to add in something which I think relates to ‘grip’, the track record I so proudly elude to as a small accomplishment, was with an aluminum axle in briggs boxstock senior medium, which is also out side the box.

And when we shifted to UAS racing we still used an aluminum axle.  Yes we had other mechanical advantages which are now the norm today, because of what WE did, but ‘aluminum axle’?  It goes very hard against the grain of applying weight to the outside rear and unloading the inside rear.  Yes in the case of UAS, it’s LTO racing and stagger should be instantly thought of being able to make it possible.  But the truth of the matter is we did it with just a 1/4 inch of stagger and did it by “VERY FINE TUNING” the unloading of the inside rear.  So Gary and who else may want to listen, I do understand both worlds.

 

paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul Kish]

The best way to get rid of me is to just ignore my worthless posts and I’ll just fade away.

Thank you all though, I have learned from you.

[Paul Kish]

I’ve been doing this a few years now too. What brought sprint karts into my LTO thoughts was one Sunday I think three years ago not when there was not dirt racing and I went to Thompson sprint track, south east of the Cleveland area. There were quit a few gold plates there that day and all except one were standard looking sit up karts, Top Karts or what ever. There was also one LTO lay down looking kart I first thought was an oval kart. The young man had his seat laid back and his kart was just different from the rest. hummmm was all I said and couldn’t wait to see the kart out on the track. Well, he kicked butt. Then I instantly started thinking about how he had to be using his inside rear. Well it’s a few years later, the site I usually waist folks time on and have fun writing crashed, and I wandered back here.

 

I thought I had something to offer, so I gave it a shot.

 

I’ve talked about this relating it to a couple of sprint kart racer I’ve know for a lot of years, at two different occasions and probably two different years at Beaver Run. On both occasions we did come to understand each other about it. Though discussed in different terms, we did end up with a mind set about it. “It” is, what I’m trying to convey on here.

 

I think I’d better stop again.

 

paul

[Paul Kish]

I’m not ignoring it.  I’m not saying put the thing on the ground and make it slip.  I know you can’t do that.

I guess I’m arguing something already answered when I asked the question about just using the outside rear over, also using the inside rear a little.  You all have already answered me saying it’s not needed, it’s a waist of time and it will be slower.  And there’s already been confirmation you all who have answered are fast, good drivers and experienced.

 

So far I have not seen any understanding of what I’m proposing in any reply.  I don’t think the inability to understand is all in my explaining.  I think some of the inability to not understand is a lot about, ya just don’t do it that way, it won’t work and karts just are not made that way.

Why the restrictions on laying a seat down?  I think it’s purely political and based on how it might change how ‘things have always been done’ and potentially hurt profits.  I don’t think it has anything at all to do with speed.

If your totally convinced I’m wrong, then don’t reply and let me babble on.  I’m pretty stuck in my ways, but eventually I’ll get tired of talking to myself.  I’m not hurting standard practices, teach them they work and they’ll keep working so long as the status quo is kept. …

 

paul

[Paul Kish]

Below I’m posting a post which is/was a works in progress.  I didn’t know how to end the reply and was going to add something later, but lazy me just said … post it… and I did. … :)

__________________

Thank you for the replies and understanding or at least trying to understand me.

I’m not trying to joust with anyone. I’m trying to give something new. If I just by chance happen to be correct with what I’m trying to convey, how often does something new come along? I hope my persistence doesn’t come to the pain in the butt stage. I’ve been doing this for some time now just as those spoken so highly about have been doing this for a long time. I truly do not feel my thoughts about what I’m trying to show or give are incorrect. It’s a matter of seeing, perceiving and recognizing another’s idea if the idea is going to spread. I see others trying, but I do not see others seeing what I’m proposing.

trying to move on without arguing or jousting with anyone

I do understand the reply below. I’m not arguing with it because it is 100% correct. It is not about what I’m suggesting. I guess what I’m trying to show is a hey if you do this and fit what your doing into these parameters, you might be able to go faster through a turn.

“The idea of “outside rear tight” where the outside rear doesn’t want to rotate because of load, doesn’t exist in sprint karting. If you have too much load on the outside tire, it slips and loses traction and sets the inside rear down.”

I guess one of my basic philosophies it to run your tires as efficiently as possible. With that in mind this particular idea is not about over taxing your tires. It’s not about something which would cause the outside rear to slip. Just the opposite, it’s about an idea where you can use your rear tires more efficiently. Efficiency to me, especially when you have limited hp, means you can apply more of your limited hp to go forward, because you use less to unstick a tire.

I think the higher you get up the who’s good tree and the higher level of racing tree, who beats who is most often decided by who can get through a turn skuffing off the least speed. The higher the level of racing gets and the closer the competitors get, the more important it to maintain momentum.

What I’m offering if you look back at it again is a possible way to negotiate a turn at a lower level of total grip. Do that and you can maintain a little more momentum and you can apply a little more hp. I not at all thinking about or considering a situation where you are going to exceed available grip. It’s a way of using less over all grip then what is available. If there is unlimited grip, who uses the least to do the same thing will go the quickest.

I’m not in suggesting the outside rear does not want to rotate. It’s going to rotate enough to release it continually from the track. Let me say the same thing except use twist instead of rotate. Since were turning the outside rear in a turn it’s also when in contact being twisted. So I’ll say instead, it’s going to twist enough to release it continually from the track. The amount of sticky is still going to be there. But what I’m proposing is the combined amount of twisting and what it takes to release from the track, will be less if you split the twist and release between two tires over just one. It’s all also a matter of the degree which you can do it. I’m not saying push both tires into the track and they will release easier, that’s not good. I’m suggesting lowering the seat in a high grip situation, to help free up the rear tires by directing some force more outward.

When you have unlimited grip there are only a few ways to over come it and prevent waisting hp. You alter the ability of the tires themselves to grip, you increase speed, you change how you aim weight at the tires and… I’m proposing you do something to limit the slip angle created at the outside rear tire, by using the inside rear a little more.  Lowering the cg is what is going to allow you to use it a little more.  How much is ‘some’? As much as you can without using too much. Keep in your picture when thinking about it, that your slowing down anyway or… inserting an ‘arc’ etc? … sorry :)

added:  Use the inside rear too much and you already know the result.  You’ll be a pig when trying to initiate acceleration.

[Paul Kish]

Thank you all for the replies. I am not suggesting a need to cause the inside rear to slide.

Someone brought into this how using the inside rear more will likely be balanced with creating a potential to over steer. I think I see the thought process to bring the two together. I can relate forcing the inside rear to do something in addition to what it would normally do, to needing more input from the fronts. And more input from the fronts would put them closer to not having sufficient grip and over steer to compensate. But I’m not suggesting to force the issue with anything. It is going to take a certain amount of effort to turn an outside rear which is loaded up heavily. I don’t think anyone will argue with me on that.

I’d better stop and ask a general question.

Does anyone think it may be possible for the fronts to turn the back tires with less effort, when the inside rear is partially engaged with the track, instead of having just the outside rear on the track? In other words is it easier for the fronts to turn the back of the kart when there’s one large slip angle engaged with the track, over two.

[Paul Kish]

“snip>why(do) you continue to pursue your theories in this and the “Slow in, Slow out” thread<snip”

Because I enjoy thinking about how race vehicles interact with the track through their tires and enjoy writing my thoughts down while thinking about stuff.  I’m not trying to impress anyone and I think neither are you.  I just went back and read some on the ‘other’ thread and we are at different ends of the earth about seeing how stuff works.  I see that I did challenge you with some of what I wrote on the other thread and I’m sorry I did it.  I won’t be doing it again.

 

[Paul Kish]

Do you have any experience with regional or national level sprint racing Paul?

 

Only regional level and very little.  And at that time I also know I had very little knowledge of anything about how stuff works.  I then not even knowing, relied only on driver skill and seat time, monkey see monkey do and having and engine as good as if not better then anyone else.

And our results were only mediocre too.

On a side note, I strongly feel except for the top of the ladder, how far you get up the ladder is a matter of attendance as much as it is skill and knowledge. … :)

 

Thank you for the courteous reply and I hope my reply was the same.

 

paul

[Paul Kish]

.

[Paul Kish]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Rodney Ebersole wrote:</div>
Paul, With either seat the top point of the pyramid of traction control is the seat/driver. The bottom is the tires contact points. The taller the pyramid is will increase the amount of vertical force upon the contact points when trying to change direction. A lay down seat set up would need narrower and shorter contact points in order to try and equal the vertical force that a sit up seat would have. At some point in width and length decreases it would not be able to produce as much vertical force upon the tires. Horizontal forces and dirt reduce grip .

I think I see exactly what your explaining.  I’m not disagreeing with any of it.  I’m going to try to include what you explained and bring it into my way of seeing its application.  I’m trying to look at thing by shaping the triangle to how I choose to use the tires.  … it’s tough to explain…  If my goal is to make sure I get enough grip out of the outside leg of the triangle to use it’s contact point to hold me in, then I’m mainly interested in the height of the triangle.  And I’m only concerned in how the height alters my ability to use the outside leg.  The inside leg will do what it will do when addressing the use of the outside leg.  All I expect and need to get out of the inside leg is minimal interference with the functioning outside leg.  When we need to use the other leg, it will then be acting the same as the outside leg does now.  We will just be shifting and dealing with it in reverse.  Simple cut and dry and I agree it works.

Does that sound ok?

All I’m suggesting is instead of looking at the inside leg as functioning to give us minimal interference with the operation of the outside leg, lets look at what else the minimal interference is maybe doing for us and enhance it.  I’m suggesting to look at the minimal interference of the inside leg of the triangle and having a function.  If your slowing down anyway isn’t the inside leg also helping to hold the back end in.  I’m suggesting to enhance the use of the inside leg while slowing down and cause the load to be split, as much as possible, between the two rear tires.  And then when you apply hp again, you can better control the introduction of the hp, because you previously have included being able to control slip at the inside leg.   It’s the outward direction of force you can use to give you more control over slip at the inside leg.

On a side note controlling slip at the inside rear is not all about gaining an additional tool to control slip.  It’s also about recognizing your also moving along the track while all this control is taking place.  Sometimes to fix a problem or gain a need, it’s simply a matter of preventing something from happening for an instant and your at a new place on the track where the problem no longer can occur.

I’d better stop for now and see what comes back.

Sometimes when things come back up it leaves a sour taste in your mouth. … :)   just more dry humor for my own benefit and fun

[Paul Kish]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Tim Pappas wrote:</div>
I think there is a great opportunity for you Paul. Throw a laydown seat in a chassis and head to the Supernats. The track is a great test….no grip to start and decent grip by the end of the weekend. After your laydown seated kart smokes all those silly sit up drivers you can go into business selling laydown seats to all the Euro chassis guys or pimp yourself as a set up guru. P.S. The track turns right and left…stagger won’t help you.

I expected and anticipated someone to bring stagger into this thread.

If you will notice I related what I’m introducing here to LTO racing only for the reason of bringing in the thought of splitting slip angles between rear tires and how it may be an advantage over not splitting them.  I started the thread to try to get into a discussion of why do most all sprint racers sit in such an up right position.  I’m open to what may flow from it so long as the direction does not include throwing barbs and arrows and new directions it may take.  I did not bring in stagger.  I did not bring it in because it does not apply.  I don’t think using something which does not apply to the parameters the thread is so far addressing, is meaningful in any way.  I don’t race.  I tried it and found out I was no good at it.  I’m going to try to address your kind input and try to answer in a way it will keep this thread on a path I want to take.

Repeating myself, stagger has nothing at all to do with the possible benefit I see from increasing the splitting of slip angles between the rear tires.  Though it helps when you turn in only one direction, stagger is not a way to match up the rear tires to the radius of a turn.  It is something when used as needed can provide additional control of direction for whole kart, in addition to the directional control you get from the front tires.  Stagger can also be the primary thing which controls the direction of travel of what your racing.  Produced slip angles at the rear, weather you are using stagger or not, will allow for more efficient travel through a corner if split between rear tires.  I said nothing about the ability to meet the ideal or not.  You may not, but I see it as obvious how varying the situation and circumstances will either enhance your ability to get close to ideal or not.  I also see how if you have an abundance of one of the things I have mentioned or a lack of another, you may not have the ability to even try to get close.   Again those things you have to use and blend are available grip, available hp and the need to maintain momentum.

In the case of the track you mentioned which goes from slick to grip.  Just in case your not already aware of the obvious, I’ll point out the obvious to you.  Maybe the next time you race there it will help you play a way to attack the track, which goes from slick to grip.  The two obvious things you have to deal with are the changing available grip and what is most always over looked and usually not even considered, the reduction of forces available to you when the track grip is reduced.  I assume you know what you can and cannot do to physically increase grip when the track is fresh and slick.  Actually you are limited to doing things directly to the tires.  The tires are the only thing which you can change that will directly and physically change grip.  Everything else you do is because of changing the levels of forces available to you.  Simply put all the other setup things you can do, are to make the chassis react quicker to move the force of the CG to tires or slower.  When the track slicks it assumes it’s easier to exceed the limit of grip at the tires.  Even with a slick track your only option may be to bang weight quickly into a tire and hope it holds.  Other times you need to bang or move weight quickly over to where it is going to operate a tire and then ease it into the tire as best you can, trying again not to exceed it’s limit.  It just depends on need at the tire and the tires ability to grip, how you move weight and the speed you move weight.

I’m going to stop.  I think I addressed that I am not even considering stagger when writing on here.  And that if stagger is introduced as an argument in this thread, how it is meaningless to the direction of this thread.  And I hope I showed that I do see how setup needs to be shifted in the way it will deal with available force, when a track goes from slick to grip or vice versa.

If you would when thinking about if it’s really a benefit to split slip angles between the rear tires, just pick one scenario of available grip and available hp and stick with it in your mind.  I think if you can keep the scenario you relate to for the time being constant, if what I’m proposing is valid it will fit in.  If you do fit it into just one scenario, I think you will then be able to fit it into other situations of available hp and available grip.  I don’t mean to keep harping on available grip and available hp, but I have to because the hp you relate to when thinking about on track situations is just as important to define the situation as available grip.  I’ll assume every driver is driving perfectly and there are no things a driver can do to fix a problem.  By the way, there is no need to think about or understand any of this, unless you can use it to fix on track problems.  Without the ability to relate theory to fixing on track problems, it’s all meaningless.  When I’m at a track, unless approached with a specific problem by a driver or a crew member or unless I see an obvious mechanical issue needing addressed, I never comment on things without first knowing the driver or crew or I have the same understanding of an on track problem.  I don’t care if your the best driver in the world and never loose, your a racer and your out there to win and win in such a way second place wonders why there even racing.  But if I happen along and correctly bring up a specific on track problem your having your going to want to talk about it.  Well, most all will want to talk about it because there are three phases in learning to drive.  The first your starting out and your open for anything and most anything suggested to you will help.  Then there’s the I’m fast stage and  no matter what anyone suggests it won’t help you because your fast and know your fast.  Then if you make it through the ‘I’m fast’ stage without terrible injury or running out of money, you start to become a journeyman and you concentrate on refining your race craft.  But the funny thing I’ve noticed is along the way you first started out wanting to and hoping to talk to every and anyone about racing, then you clammed up knowing it all and finally as a journeyman your open again looking for any and all input to refine your race craft.  I’ve seen many racers grow and become skilled in their craft.  I don’t know you  Tim or who ever may be reading on here, you can fit yourself in where ever you like and you can fit me in where ever you like.  But in the end were all just feeding our addiction and love of racing in all it’s aspects.  Let’s talk about stuff and not about each other.  Tell me where I’m wrong so I can learn if I can change my hard set head, but lets not just look to show who’s the most ignorant.  If there needs to be a winner on ignorance to move on, I’ll take first place and then lets get on to the next race.

[Paul Kish]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Jimmy McNeil wrote:</div>
Paul, if your theory was accurate, when it rains, people would lower their seats for additional grip. It’s just the opposite. When it rains, people raise their seats for a higher center of gravity. This does two thing, on corner entry it transferes weight to the outside front, lifting the inside rear allowing the chassis to rotate. It also transferes weight to the outside tires through the corner for additional grip/speed. Hope I’m explaining this ok. When your over stuck, lower the seat to take out grip

:)  I agree with everything you said except: the if your theory was accurate part. … :)

What works when and what you do when, depends on available grip, available hp and I usually will say the need to maintain momentum.  But with the rain scenario I’ll change the last to “the need to deal with momentum and the ability to brake”.

I’m assuming there is enough grip to handle either a sit up kart or a seat laid back seat kart.   I’m seeing the sit up kart in the corner with the inside rear off the track and all rear load on the outside rear.  And the alternative I’m seeing is the laid back seat kart with the inside rear not completely off the track and all of the rear load not completely on the outside rear, with some load on the slipping inside rear.

I’m tired and I’ll read this in the morning.  I may see my folly in it or I may say brilliant explanation… nawww that won’t happen

[Paul Kish]

Jimmy, been there done that as far as watching and seeing the difference in the corners and you are 100% correct.

But while reading your reply, this came to mind.  I’ll bet if you can give me a very short driver in a short laydown kart, we will keep up just fine in the corners.

paul

[Paul Kish]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Mike Clark wrote:</div>
Paul, Already it seems you are saying use the inside but lift or slip the inside. That sounds like a contradiction.

I expected not your specific reply but something similar.  And while I was writing I anticipated it.  It’s not about not needing to lift, unload or slip the inside rear, that is needed, a must and just the way it is and is not going to go away.  It’s about how you use the unloaded inside rear and changing the requirements of how much you unload the inside rear.  Sure, you got to unload it enough but how much is enough will change, when you drop down the seat.

You will be taking some of the forces available to you to leverage the chassis to unload the inside rear and use them to shove the inside rear outward.  The combined shoving and leveraging will require less effort to free the inside rear then just leveraging it up, using the outside rear as the fulcrum point.

You absolutely do NOT have a need to unload or lift the inside rear tire.  You have the need to free up or slip the inside rear, in fact if you can cause it to slip as needed it never even needs to leave the track.  There is a big difference.

It’s also going to make a difference when you need to load the inside rear to accelerate.  You already know load it too soon and your pig out of the corner.  If  you slip it and then ease it back into the track, you will have more control for using it again then if you lift it and bang it back down.  … yeah I exaggerated to make a point, but the idea is there and sound.

 

edit:  I know sometimes you see karts in turns where the inside rear never leaves the track.  Is it always bad when the inside rear does not leave the track?

I think not.  If your slowing down anyway or on the power maintaining your speed and you have the power to do it, there’s may be no advantage to completely unloading the inside rear.  I don’t know but I suspect someone may get on here and say … so and so is fast and his inside rear never seems to leave the track… or not because it’s just something I suspect.

[Paul Kish]

I shouldn’t have to explain but because you do not have a differential you “MUST” unload or slip the inside rear.

 

… before I go on, do we agree with that one point?

 

I can’t go on if that is not understood.

 

___________________

I guess there is one other thing we have to agree on before I can convince you I’m correct.

 

If you take a tire, any tire and roll it do you agree it will want to roll straight?  (I know you can throw in a bunch of stuff that can make it want to not roll straight, but for all practical purposes, roll a tire and it will want to roll straight.

 

Can we agree on that?

 

___________________

 

This next one may be a bit tougher for you to want to agree with.  But from what I read so far of your words you will not try to dodge it.

The tire which is rolling straight, don’t you have to add input to make it roll in a direction other then straight?

I think you will say yes.

And what if you added weight to it, won’t it take more input to make it roll in a direction other then straight?

I think you will… maybe reluctantly but I do think you will say yes.

 

I think you already know what happens if you make a tire roll in a direction other then straight.  Because there is no need to play 20 questions I’ll answer.  A slip angle will be created.  … not think about it…

To conserve energy and put the hp you have into going forward, would you want to turn one tire with a big slip angle or two with smaller slip angles?  It’s tough to say two ain’t it?  But you know you do feel two smaller slip angle will be easier to turn.  In fact they are.  Next I’m sure your going to want me to quote verse, rime and reason why two small slip angles will be easier to create then one large one.  … I can’t do that.  All I can do is say from all that I’ve ever seen LTO racing, unless you have gobs of hp able to take advantage of dumping weight on the outside rear, it’s faster to split the split angles.  If what your racing does have all the hp you need to put the hp to the outside rear and go, assuming the outside rear has all the grip you need, you will not agree with me.  But if you are at the limit of your hp, it’s faster to split the slip angles.  In LTO racing when you have the outside rear so heavily weighted it just wants to roll straight too much, we call it right rear tight or … Outside rear tight.

 

If your on a shifter you may not be able to see it.  But if your on a lower hp can or brigs, it will show itself to you.

 

… what follows is what’s left and what’s left is all about forces out on the track.  It’s how lowering the seat changes how you use forces to be able to free up the tires and split the slip angle.

I think I did ok explaining it, but time will tell.

 

______________________

 

edit:  If your wondering why laydown seats can even be competitive, what I just explained above or at least tried to explain IS why.  Yes I understand the higher CG and how it helps leverage the chassis, but…  think about it… doesn’t the higher CG also create a longer lever and don’t longer levers work slower?  And then to make that longer lever work as needed, don’t you have to then round up extra effort to make the long lever work as FAST as needed?  Now… shorten the lever by dropping down the driver.  All of a sudden you also have a shorter lever to operate.  … hummmm… it’s a win win situation, ain’t it?

 

—————-

 

thanks for the reply, been fun writing, I’ll look back in tomorrow am unless I head off to a track out east.

[Paul Kish]

Thank you all for the replies.  I’ve wondered why so many situp high drivers.

The lay down seat should in all sprint karting classes be faster.  It’s because the lay down seat allows for increased use of the inside rear tire.  And it is fact the same grip distributed across two rear tires will go around the track more efficiently or ‘freer’, then with increased unloading of the inside tire and more use of the outside tire.  Thank you for the input to my question.  I was wondering why so many sprint kart drivers still sit up so tall.  In addition a seat more laid down also gives an aero advantage.

 

paul

[Paul Kish]

All I can do now to start back in is to say I’m sorry and didn’t mean to offend or criticize others input.

I think I learned a couple of new lessons on here.  They are only present your own thoughts and only address the questions and comments of the original poster, without any reference to anyone else’s post.  Any time you reference or use anything from anyone else you are running the risk of angering others and are hijacking the thread and taking it in a different direction.

I will again try to present my observation, without referencing any other poster.  I’m sorry for doing otherwise before.  And I’m sorry it does not accurately address the subject of “Slow in Slow out”, because until this thread I had no knowledge of it.

______________________________

There can be something if needed and if the situation allows for it, between the end of entry deceleration and the beginning of exit acceleration or full acceleration.

Altering your entry line will alter your exit line.

Ideally you want to finish the straight at the highest possible speed, brake and enter a turn on a line which will put you on the best exit line. What you do in between is crucial to being able to exit on a specific line at the most advantageous speed.

Depending on what comes next after exit or during exit be it a racing situation, a straight very short or very long or another turn, you may or may not be at the maximum speed possible to obtain between entry and exit. But you still will want to be able to cover between entry and exit as quickly as possible and be on the best line at exit. The best line may be a line you need to complete a pass, it may be a defensive line or it may be simply the best line to obtain the highest speed until the next turn. What you do and can do between entry and exit is what will put you on the line you need, at the speed you want.

There is an actual line that can be taken on the track, that can be used between the end of entry and the start of exit, which is not a gradually changing line between where entry deceleration ends and exit acceleration is complete. It can be taken only if the driver deliberately inserts it between the end of deceleration and the beginning of acceleration.

The end of deceleration and the start of acceleration do not have to be an instant thing. A geometric ’arc’ can be inserted at the end of deceleration and before exit acceleration is started. The obvious way to insert the ’arc’ line is to slightly get on the gas and roll a little at entry speed. The ‘arc’ if planed for by the driver instead of going directly into acceleration, can allow for an even later ending of the entry straight and a change in exit line.

The rest of the point I’m making is the ’arc’ can be taken at a speed higher then entry speed. When deceleration ends, instantaneously grip is redistributed to the outside tires in a favorable way, where the driver can immediately accelerate. If the driver learns the skill to do it, it will allow for the ‘arc’ to be taken at a speed higher then their speed at the end of entry.

The potential net advantage is ending the straight later and with the slight increased acceleration through the ‘arc’ to it’s exit point, where full exit acceleration would begin. Because of the later entry and slightly elevated ‘arc’ speed time spent in the corner can be reduced. Because of the ‘arc’ nature of the line added between the end of the later entry and the beginning of exit acceleration, it’s possible to be on a line at exit you could not be on if you began your exit acceleration, immediately after deceleration. I’m trying to show the possibility of a corner line, which intentionally includes an ‘arc’.

[Paul Kish]

“I envision Broque and Ceaser sitting behind a keyboard giggling. Trolling.”

 

And I envision a wet behind the ears kid, with no manners nor proper up bringing.

 

I’d appreciate ending the name calling now.  If you have something to add to the discussion present it.  I’ve probably been on this board and it’s predecessor since before you were born.

I suspect my irrational thoughts have even had some input into the way, the front end of the kart you ride today is designed.

[Paul Kish]

“How do you go faster on that same line if the kart oversteers or understeers when you accelerate?  You haven’t answered that question and how it applies to the ability to travel the “exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed”…”

 

That’s the whole point to what I’m explaining, you can’t.  This all depends on circumstances. You can’t be on the gas because you would either be loose or push.  But you can travel an ‘x’ amount of distance at a speed higher then entry.  Entry speed, plus elevated speed through a portion of the turn to the point where you can fully accelerate, can at times be faster then entry speed and then apply as much acceleration as possible to where full acceleration can be applied.  IMHO, over all turn times with the same exit line, will always be better.

 

You all like math.  I’m saying there are times when you can average a higher speed over a similar but maybe not exact line and have the same exit line, by maintaining a constant speed through a portion of the turn.  You can do it over applying maximum acceleration through the same portion of the turn.  I know you want to say how can entering at one speed and then immediately starting to accelerate ever be slower, then trying to maintain a slightly elevated speed after entry.  It can because acceleration instantly demands a loss of grip at the outside front limiting rate of acceleration while turning.  And if your not on the fine line of maximizing slip ratio, your rate of acceleration is even less.

Sorry, I’m wandering off again.  I see your points and thoughts now.  I’m incorrect about the possibility I’m trying to show and I guess the only thing left is to say I’m sorry for wasting all your time.  Thanks for the conversation and thanks for showing me the errors of my ways.

 

paul

 

 

[Paul Kish]

“1) It’s possible to maintain speed after decelerating, up to the point where you accelerate again, being at the limit of grip all the time – that should be obvious.”

 

The only thing to what I’m presenting is you can not only maintain speed after decelerating, because of the instant redistribution of grip after you end deceleration, you can travel the exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed.

And to do it, the driver needs to learn how to do it.

 

[Paul Kish]

Greg, … :)  I think Eric see’s it.  Why can’t you and Rob?  … :)

 

just having fun and trying to get yer head up off the table

 

I know how hard it is sometimes to see what’s right in front of your face.  I also know how it’s usually just about impossible to see something that’s right in front of MY face. … :)

please see this as only my dry sense of humor not being able to be confined

 

[Paul Kish]

Rob, does it matter how long it takes to get somewhere on here as long as we get somewhere?

It’s hard to not sound like I’m arguing with you but I’ll give it a try.

 

Do you feel there is nothing that can take place between where deceleration entering a corner ends and acceleration from the corner begins?

I feel there is.

 

Are you saying to me it’s impossible not go from deceleration to acceleration instantly?

 

I’ll answer it’s possible to stop decelerating and maintain your speed, until you begin to accelerate.  With that being a possibility, what I’m explaining is you can take the exact same line as if you only maintained your speed after ending deceleration, at a higher speed.  You can do it because even if you entered the turn at maximum grip, once you end deceleration grip is instantly redistributed.  And if you have the driver skill you can take advantage of the instant redistribution of grip to accelerate slightly.  Allowing you to take the same turn, on the same line, with the same exit point,  at a higher speed.

[Paul Kish]

Eric,  Yes I think you are describing entry and exit into the area I’m trying to point out.

I’d like to say yes, yes and yes.

What I’m adding to it is once entered, you can use your skill again to slightly accelerate and cover the transition area at a speed slightly above entry.  You can do it because once you’ve entered the area and are no longer decelerating, the slight acceleration will quickly remove some use from the outside front and split it up more evenly between the outside front and rear.  The shift in use of grip will allow for both the slight acceleration and the maintaining of a higher speed, to when you apply normal exit acceleration.  What is key is it provides for the possibility of hitting your exact same marks on exit or even a mark more toward the inside of exit, at a higher speed then if you immediately switched from deceleration to acceleration.  It’s done every race by drivers and I think if you think about the watching of turns you have done in the past, it will click that you have been seeing it all along but not recognizing it.

 

[Paul Kish]

There is something between deceleration and acceleration.  It can be as little as an extended point between deceleration and acceleration or it can involve the majority of the turn.  It is a transition area between deceleration and acceleration.

I don’t think it’s ever discussed.

 

 

[Paul Kish]

Again, I’m writing while having my first coffee, posting this without first reading though it and now heading off to get that other much needed second cup. … :)

 

TJ wrote:

“That’s what I’m saying though; if you’re using all the grip available, regardless of which tire you’re leaning on the most, you physically cannot corner any faster. After that it’s just distributing the grip through the tires in the proper order to achieve the desired apex and exit speed.”

Thank you.  I think you sparked something which is taking others towards what I’m still trying to point out.  It’s about there is something between deceleration and acceleration.  All drivers to be fast must learn special skills to deal with what I like to call the transition from deceleration to acceleration.  I mostly watch LTO(left turn only) and it originally and reciently within a few years of today showed itself to me LTO racing.  It’s something I’ve been watching forever, but never saw it.  When recognized it instantly took a lot of the mystery of why some are just faster then others.  I understand heart and put your all into it.  I assume and think all racers out on the track are doing just that.  I also believe any racer out on the track who is not and who’s sole purpose out there is to win no matter what their chances of winning, has no business on the track.  But that’s for another thread and moving towards the discussion would just be hijacking this thread.

Back to the discussion.  There is something between ‘Threshold Braking” and “Trail Braking”.  How much is there in-between is no different then before and after.  How much opportunity is there depends on circumstances and what the track at that point has to offer.  In LTO racing since it shows itself with a brighter brush, it is often referred to as rolling the corner.  Depending on track conditions, available hp, racing needs, etc., it may me momentary or it may appear to extend through most of the corner.  I think I am the first person to try to define it specifically and to present a reason why it can occur, even at a higher speed then entry.  I think were talking about something you have never read about before this thread.

To further understand what I reluctantly will call rolling the corner and discussions coming from it about different ways you can roll a corner, Ray brought up ‘rotation’ and I think we need to understand rotation.  I have come to define in my mind ‘rotation’ in two ways.  You can rotate through a corner, meaning to go through a corner on a curved line.  What your racing also has the ability to cause itself to interact with the track via it’s tires, in addition to traveling on a curved line along the track.  It can also make effort to rotate the outside toward the front and inside toward the rear or nose toward the inside and rear toward the outside.  The end result will be the whole kart rotating through the turn in a specific direction, because of its efforts to rotate as I described in the previous sentence.

That means when I speak of the ability of a kart to rotate, I’m speaking of it’s ability via the tires to cause it to want to twist towards the inside while negotiating the turn.  What your doing when you setup a kart and while driving is to make individual tires. combined to work toward a goal where kart rotation causes the kart to be able to go where you want it to go.  It is complicated.  There are different way to use your tires to get the same amount of rotation needed, to travel in the direction you want to go.  It becomes even more complicated because there are different ways to use your tires to brake and accelerate in the direction you want to go.  Understanding setup and driving is understanding the different ways you can use your tires to brake and accelerate in the direction you want to go.  That is pretty much all that is dealt with in all the books you will read.  And most all the bookwork you will learn with any race vehicle which turns both left and right bases things on over all grip and the rotation of the whole kart along the intended line.  All that to say, all rotation is not the same and when someone speaks of the kart rotating or a kart rotating, you need to understand the context of the word ‘rotation’.

After all that I’m going to repeat myself as I often do and say, all of my posting on here so far is trying to show there is something between deceleration and acceleration.  And it’s totally accomplished by driver skill.

I’m going to end for now I hope with, I’m NOT arguing with anyone and I’m NOT trying to say anyone is wrong.  I think I’m pointing out something which is not normally if ever, talked about on here.  I think it exists, it is seen all the time but never defined and looked at and it is a major driver skill which separates the slow from the fast.  maybe ? … :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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