[Bob Vehring]

Jimmy, it was really aimed at you either, I don’t know many of the west coast people. I just see far to often what I think happens too much, especially with kids, is the thinking their on their way to NASCAR. That does happen, but not often and sometimes there those parents that are far more aggressive on that road then their actual experience level.

I don’t often bring up the things I did in the last post, but I think many/most don’t really understand that until it hits close to home. I hope they don’t have to go through that.

Both Danica and Ryan Hunter Reay are stars now They are both mid 30’s and both were racing karts in Man Cup and MWSS when they were 12 along with my two kids. One of mine is doing well in Pro Snowmobiles. Today everyones in a hurry, thinks this comes in 5-10 years. These guys have all been racing for 25 years or more. You can buy some knowledge, but you really can’t buy experience, only time gives you that

[Bob Vehring]

Some of you know me, some don’t. Those that do know my point is not so a ” lynching of SKUSA here will insure that no other promoter thinks outside of the box and tries to blaze new trails.” in fact, its the opposite, To hope that future events come off better then then this one.

I have some things I really don’t like to bring up, but maybe it will help the real ” Monday  morning quarterbacks” understand what were really dealing with. One of the jobs I’ve had in this sport is being one of the handful of people that put on the Road America Supernationals. I did it for 20 years, but the race was around for 35. Often we were over the 1000 entry mark. Twice in 3 years I had to deal with the situation on track for two of our racers that did not make it home. One was an incident between two TaG racers, both had at least a decade of racing, both also did shifters, the kid that died was a close friend and had grown up with my kids. The other incident points to Jimmys comment on the hub. In this case a 2 dollar clevis pin failed. Even with a  wide track and good sized sand trap, the man did not make it.

We as racers understand their are risks involved in what we do. We also depend on the various Series, groups, Promoters, whoever, to give us the safest track possible.

You are correct that I was not at this track, but I’ve been around long enough to know when I see the number of comments made, and who some of the people making them are regarding the safety of this track,  there must be something to it. Never did I slam SKUSA or suggest they give this up, I do hope they learn from it.

If I’m the Quarterback someone referred to, I can only hope you don’t have to take the ride home from some of the races I did, besides the two mentioned above there has been many more incidents, injuries to kids, carnage to clean up, parents and family to talk to, investigations you become part of, and of course the media which always show up when something bad happens. Those things give you a perspective I certainly hope most people don’t ever get

[Bob Vehring]

Guys, I’m not looking to fight, but I don’t think that some of you are looking for answers either. I also don’t think you understand that the bad press you guys gets effects everyone in the sport

The comparison with Blackhawk has nothing to do with comparing the tracks simply put, we have the same classes, some like the 250 twins, and superkarts, much faster, are our tracks wider, yes but many not by as much as you think. Are you limited to the layout of existing road, certainly, that’s why streets are not race tracks. Think we don’t have different things to deal with? Try Grattan sometime

None of that had to do with my point which simply is, with maybe 7 or 8 Road Race series working around the country all season, entries from several hundred to a thousand. The point simply is, in any race, the drivers simply must be able to handle the track safely, you can’t blame the track, you chose the track. I hope you don’t shoot paintball with real bullets then complain you got hurt.

 

Jimmy, I see you have adopted the ” Best drivers in the World” title, boy thats been around before. Ever tried a 1/8 mile dirt track? Think 125’s are fast, come see the 250’s with GP bike engines or the twin engine laydowns. Hardest races we have been in were WKA Dirt back in the 2000’s. 2300 entries at Daytona, 240 shooting for St. medium 30 kart field alone with only 2 qualifying sessions . You might enjoy going into a corner at 70, with 30 others, on dirt. Don’t take yourself so seriously, remember lawn mower racing gets more spectators, sponsors and TV coverage then we do

Theres only one reason I’m even in this conversation, my job is to promote karting. Sorry but out here, never heard a word about this race before it happened. Shifters aren’t around much anywhere east of the river. They had their day, but it seems to be long gone. I think thats too bad, I still have one in the basement, but it hasn’t been out in 10 years. The problem here is when something goes bad, now it is everywhere thanks to public media. The first I knew of that race was all the crash vids that showed up. For the last 2 decades, my wife and I average about 35 days a year doing shows to get people into karting, unless you also talk to thousands of potential new people, trying to get them involved, I don’t think you have any idea how much of an impact those videos have, they scare new people off. 70% or more of our new people are Kid Karts of Jr Sportsman. Parents see that and their done, it effects every track in the country, its not just about California shifter and Tag’s

[Bob Vehring]

No Flames at all Tim, a couple questions or comments

1 At one time, at least out here, there were requirements that you needed to met for certian class’s. Shifter being one, TaG another A required amount of time in a lower HP class being one of them. Same deal for Road Racing. Is that required?

I understand Shops and sales men hate this, I also know first hand its a problem for special or “one of” races to get proper varifacation, but clearly, clearly some of these people are far over their heads.

 

That brings us to Number 2 question which I really don’t get at all. 2 cy sprint seems obsessed with this concept that you need to hire, tuners, chassis guys, driving coaches and be “under someones tent” to be competitive. My kids have raced every form of karting, and really I just don’t see much of that anywhere else. To be honest, some places you’d be laughed off the track.

We always have asked others for advice, and given it ourselves to anyone that asks us, but there’s no question in my mind, that a increasing number of driver are being pushed beyond their personal experience level either by their parents or personal ego or shops looking for their next disposable hero with a wallet. Any driver has to have the knowledge and experience to move up to faster forms of racing. There’s a difference between someone thinking their ready, and really having it behind them

Sorry that sound so harsh, it certainly doesn’t mean all people or shops by any means, but if you have been around, and grown up through kart racing, look at what you see today, you get the point

We just got back from the Road Race at Blackhawk Farms. 2 mile track 100+ mph for many classes, no shortage of shifters, TaG’s and Sprint opens. Really don’t know official entries numbers but would guess the normal 200-300 entries. Total number of Red Flags, 1, to chase the snapping turtle off the side of the track, I think he was trying to grid for LO 206

 

Serious point here, far to many people trying to jump into something their not ready for

[Bob Vehring]

Are there viewing areas not shone on the vids? I was expecting spectators lining the track, I see some here and there but I was thinking it would be packed

[Bob Vehring]

Not tryin to provoke any fighting, but here is an example of what I’m seeing. I didn’t go looking for this, just show up on my FB. I might see this differently if I saw alot of good close racing PR showing up, but honestly I didn’t even hear about this race until things went bad, now this is what tens of thousands are seeing as Kart racing

[Bob Vehring]

Keith, I never meant to suggest that SKUSA did say that. My comments are in general aimed at the comments that are now, well everywhere, some are pointing to that

I understand that a race like this will interest some, others not at all.

Many of the things I read suggest the people of Modesto are not happy, seems much of this was at tax payers exspence, more then anything, I think those people will be determining the future

[Bob Vehring]

I have 28 years in promoting kart racing. Troy’s post is 100% correct. I’ve read people boasting of the big number of people this race has reached. Remember the impression that exposure leaves can be either good or bad. I see little good coming from this that would encourage new people or parents with kids wanting to give this a shot. This race has little to no comparison with how most people get started in kart racing.

When promoting, the impression you leave is far more important then the number you reach.

[Bob Vehring]

Good group of 4 cy coming from Badger area

[Bob Vehring]

Hate to say it, but I don’t think were really going to find an answer. Too many things involved, unfortunately some not controlled by us.

Karting still is the best bang for the buck in motorsports, still cheap compared to most other things, but to some still big business. Face it, the Europeans are going to build them as they want and they will ship and sell them here, because thats how they make them. It will be pushed here, because many of our countries distributors and shop owners are politically involved. In other words, its what they sell.

We’ve been in this, between my wife first, then the kids (now mid 30’s) since 1983. One of the advantages to that is, we’ve owned and driven many types of karts, and we’ve raced in all types of karting.

Some things I just don’t get. 2 cycle sprint seams to be in a world of its own on chassis. Not that they aren’t nice chassis, they are, but your looking at around 5K for a roller. Looking at 4 cy sprint, both types of ovals and Road Race, mostly, by far American chassis and new come in around $2500.

Not looking to hi jack the topic, or start a debate, simply saying 2 cy sprint is going to follow what the Europeans give to us. Unless they over seas choose differently, you will get these new bumpers.

I think I posted this before, but we have been down this road10-15 years ago, what was then called Paperclip or hoop bumpers came around, for the same reasons, to stop climbing tires. Its not hard to see the increase in rough driving this will produce coming, and those bumpers were banned for a year or too. That changed because most imports simply started coming here with the big bumpers. That’s how they made them, that’s what they shipped.

Maybe 4-5 years ago you got the larger plastic bumper with the claim that it would better protect the rear wheels. Well look at it, of course it protects the wheels better, however not part of the sales pitch, its not hard to see its also much safer for the kart coming from behind, to punt you. That put you where you are now.

 

We’ve use just about every style of body work over the years except the newer style plastic rear bumper which I refuse to use. IMO no question the safest is the standard full coverage nose used on most 4 cy karts. Yes, you can still have contact with the rear tires of a kart in front of you, however there is only now one tire rotating to cause climbing. The full nose also is large enough and round enough that it will push you off the other kart before really climbing to the point of launching you.

We also prefer the rear bumper that meets WKA spec’s for height, but only mounts between main frame rails, which greatly reduces thoughts from someone taping you out in the corner.

 

I think we all know, the odds of getting that option from Europe are roughly zero, and I’d guess roughly the same for any promoters here bucking the trend to give you that choice. My thought is you guys will be bumper shopping soon.

The saving grace here would be, if the leaders of our sport, just like our leaders in Washington DC were to grow some balls and start governing with common sense instead of bowing to business pressure.

 

 

[Bob Vehring]

For decades, Badger never had a better friend, a fund raiser for someone hurt, the Scholarship fund, the Jr Summer series, Norm always helped I will certainly miss seeing him

[Bob Vehring]

Lets be clear that I am talking the same basic bumperthat comes up to the WKA required height and runs at least between the frame rules.. That is the same design thats been on all karts since we started in 83. It protects every thing but the wheels.

 

I think a big part of the problem is US karting has now simply taken to the common practice of simply mandating what the Europeans do. Please don’t tell me its saftey because far to many things saftey related, some of which were mandated for years, are now not enforced on European karts.

Heres a few of my favorites. At one time ALL karts were required to have some form of stopping the rear hubs from coming off the axel. It could be Cir Clip, tether or a nut and bolt. ALL 4 cy classes must still have this. CIK karts no longer have to because they don’t ship them with that. I guess wheels don’t come off over there but you may remember years ago a member of this board died when hit in the face with someones elses wheel and tire that flew across the track.

All 4 cy engines are required to have their pipes wrapped with heat tape, our pipes are 1 in in dia and about 16 in long. Seems odd that a 2 cy pipe, that cover the whole area in the back of the kart, or my real favorite, some of the 125 engines where the pipe exits in front and comes up and over the engine, right next to the driver need anything I guess those guys don’t burn

This last one should concern everyone. WKA put very tight reg’s on Briggs reqaurding flywheels, they must be steel, not cast, require factory “To destruction” testing and be enclosed by a double thickness cover attached by 5 mounting points.

Two seasons ago I witnessed a Comer 50 cc flywheel explode coming down our straight at Badger. I saw it, I inspected the engine including the cheap cast cover which was blown right off, and I swept the scharpnel off our grid, which if it had been a race day rather then a practice day, would have been filled with people and karts. I did notify the “powers that be” and received no response, not even acknowledgement they received it. No changes have been made to the flywheel system on this engine. When in doubt, HIDE.

I have little doubt that this new bumper is really driven by the manufacturers, who simply want something new to sell you

[Bob Vehring]

In a perfect world, we’d all have highly trained pro CW’s, how ever that’s rarely the case. Lets face it, at best its a one day a week JOB, and the pay, if there is any sucks

Even it Road Racing where we sometimes get the same CW’s as say Indy Car, there actually not very good for Karting because how we race is so different from cars.

My kids have raced since the 80’s, Road Race, Sprint and ovals, all share the problem. Whatever the class, if legal I use 4 cy style body work, even in 2 cy classes. Simple rule, To finish first, you must first finish. A full nose covers you front tires, really cuts down on climbing someone elses tires or kart. With only the short bumper in back, no one, well almost no one will deliberately try to tap you out going into a corner with a chance of climbing your tire. Sprint is not remotely as rough as oval racing, every oval kart there has a full nose and a short bumper, for exactly those reasons, to stay in the race.

I understand the European following doesn’t like that style, and I do have CIK body work for our sprint karts, just don’t use it unless we have to, the goal is to minimize anything, that could cause us problems.

I think the point here has been made several times, the “new answer” looks like it could cause more problems then it would fix

 

BTW, I guess that now I could qualify as the “old guy”, and the Beatles sucked in the 60’s too

[Bob Vehring]

That was it mike, I went diggin in the couch, but I’m still a little short

[Bob Vehring]

Come on Mike, at least give us a hint

[Bob Vehring]

This isn’t a new problem, It was here at Badger 10-15 years ago, WKA for a while banned  full bumpers because of the pushing in corners.

The reality is pretty simple to understand. If the kart in ft of you has open tires showing, chances are, if you hit them, its you thats going up and out. Just as clear, if the kart in ft of you has a full bumper, it doesn’t take much of a hit as he enters a corner to move him out of your way. If a driver doesn’t understand that, maybe he shouldn’t be out there

The answer appears to be fairly simple, do you want to race open wheeled karts, or bumper cars?

 

For those calling for better enforcement, here’s a story I have had to give at Badger many times.

When a parent, crew member, family or friend has something happen to their driver they come running to the Flagman or RD saying “didn’t you see that?

The sad truth is, when you have 10-25 karts on the track, are looking from one stationary point and have the entire track and field to look over, probably not.

When you watching, your looking at your driver full time, the officials, or CW’s have everyone to look at. Their view is  often obstructed by other karts, their angle to the situation, distance, etc. They can not stare directly at each kart, most likely they don’t notice something until it has started to happen. Sad but true.

 

[Bob Vehring]

Exactly what Lynn said, sorry to be so blunt, but all I see is another attempt to sell you more stuff, because the last stuff they made you buy isn’t doing what it was suppose to

[Bob Vehring]

No doubt on you car list Tim, but we can’t count NASCAR, Indy Car, and Sprint in the same as Bombers, hobby Stock, and mini sprints simply because of cost.

Karting is by far the cheapest thing out there and the nice thing is, you can buy a new chassis for $2500, an engine for a grand and go out to any level of racing you want, the equipment is the same.

I agree totally about geting back to one engine, but doubt it will happen again. My youngest son Ryan really wanted to go to Daytona again, we haven’t been in a few years. When WKA added another 4cy class a month before the race, we backed out. Looking at the results page yesterday , glad we did. We raced Daytona every year sense 1994 to a couple years ago. My kids could run 335, 360, and 385 with the same karts, just add wt. Sometimes we had 40 Animals in a class. Those days are gone.

[Bob Vehring]

I think the price of Nationals is well worth it, well if there were any true Nationals any more. It has become a generic term. Everybody has Nationals, some Nationals come about solely for the purpose of putting other Nationals under. Is that what this sport has come to?

There was a time when winning a WKA National series was the top, and other series were divisional leading to that. Nowadays its run by business’s that want you on their tires, their engine, chassis, I remember a thread on here where a racer was kicked out because he wouldn’t wear the series spec suit. It doesn’t matter to anyone if you won Man Cup, because you didn’t Win Rotax, or USPKS or Rt 66 or any of the never ending others

We grew up in this at a time where I could build a few Flatheads, and my kids could race them anywhere, any type of racing, same engines. Load the trailer and just go, everyone was in those classes. I can’t even keep track of just the 4 cy engines anymore

We went through Dirt races with 2300 entries,  NRRS with over 1000, now they think 300 is a good race. From the link Steve posted, I looked through the results from WKA Nationals in several series. People ask why we don’t travel much anymore in Karting, we should drive 2000 miles one way, cost us 5K and race against 15 karts in our class?

WE, let it get this way, and its only getting worse

[Bob Vehring]

Steve, I read that as those classes you listed were just added. I couldn’t find on the link what other classes are offered. Are there WKA BP, Animal class in all 3 age groups? I haven’t checked the dates yet, if it clears Badgers dates, maybe we could bring a group from here to INDY

[Bob Vehring]

Joshua, we run cans here, the reason is, thats what our people wanted. Sun we had either 19 or 21, cans. One of my kids sometimes runs can on and off over the years. One of the problems I have with WKA is the reasons they make changes, which theres no need to go into here.

When we started all Yamahas ran pipes, open pipes. Cans came about to end the pipe of the week deal, and to take the engine off the edge a pipe puts it on. Easier to tune, less damage if your not well versed in pipes. That was a good plan. BUT, we’ve been through 3 hole cans, 4 hole, holes in the back, holes in the side, can on a stick and now the new deal.

A can is simply a restrictor, if every racer has the same one, it really doesn’t matter which one it is. To be honest, what this is about is giving manufacturers a place to sell everyone a new product, then of course WKA hopes they continue to sponsor. If you been around for this, think for a minute what all those cans have cost you.

 

Steve, I know Badger is an island, here Norway and RA are both building LO, so I would defiantly count that in. I would guess it will come here in the not to distant future. As far as 2 cy,  of the two traveling series that come to us this year, they both offer different class structures. There is a series run by Coates called USPKS or something like that, they offer yet a different structure for 2 cy.

Other tracks here, notably Norway and Road America are both much smaller of a weekly program then us. Shawno is about dead and the other one is a small local track that is mostly Honda, (real Honda, not cloan). There is a sprint track about 4 hrs north that Steve V is part of, but don’t know much about it

[Bob Vehring]

Steve, here cans are big, Komet is dropping off, Tag, so- so. You can count Badgers numbers per class in the Race results section of badgerkart club.com. We have two traveling series that come here, Rt 66 is big, MASS only has one race in so far but small turnout, they come here next week.

Might be worth thinking about just taking several 4 cy class to a track and getting in with their existing classes for the day, shouldn’t have to deal with track rental, workers and EMS that way, they should have all that in place themselfs Most tracks would be happy to have another 30 or so entries

[Bob Vehring]

We have to remember that WF was born for a very different concept that unfortunately never took off. Its birth place was Europe, at a time when CIK thought 2 cy engines might be endangered. The concept was for the CLASS to be called WF, and made up of several brands that met the design of that class. This was back when Dan Wilson was still in charge of Motorsports for Briggs and they were the only ones to really jump in, things at CIK change and the deal fell apart. altho engines were used here and in a few other countries, I believe South America was a strong place for them.

We have to remember that Animal, LO and WF  are built on the same lines and share many  of the same parts, Animal and LO are almost the same engine accept for jetting and ign coils. WF did have some different parts. The rod was billet altho we now use the std Animal rod often even in Road Racing. Performance wise it has a bigger cam and carb and more compression, which give it the potential for more power. The draw back here is part of the org. WF class structure was a min. time between rebuilds concept written into the rules. For that, it was given a relatively low rev limiter, I think it was around 7000. The bigger cam, carb and comp give it the potential to make power much like a WKA limited, however it comes at a higher RPM where it can use those things. The limiter shuts it down before it can take advantage of those things. As with any engine increasing the flow possibilities have a trade off, and low end suffers because of a loss in velocity at lower rpms. Below 6000, it makes slightly less power then a WKA Animal

This was all prior to the Briggs switch to PVL ign and so it was easy to disconnect the rev limiter, at which point it could really use the cam and carb and was a very strong performer, the billet rod let it live at high rpms without problems.

With the limiter intact here at Badger, 6/10s sprint track the WF and Animal turn very close lap times, Animal faster throught the turns and tight stuff, WF had the advantage on the long straight.

As I said before, here BP Animal was here first and became strong so always had the edge as far as popularity. WF was a great engine, but at almost twice the price out of the box, it just didn’t sell

 

As far as time between rebiulds, like most people we simply let our leak down tester tell us when its time. When valves or rings leak, its time, period. On engines raced on dirt, filters are the main determining factor. Don’t stay on top of your filters both carb and crankcase, you see us much sooner. on anything other then dirt, carbon is the problem, it builds up on valves and seats losing seal, and on piston and head, which when it washes off, gets down between rings and walls.

Regans business consists of 4 brands of 120 engines and alot of LO206 engines in sleds, all of these must run gas as a fuel. Kart engines from here are almost all Alky engines. The differance in carbon build up is very easy to see, and greatly effects rebuild time. Gas is a very dirty fuel and builds carbon, when it builds up on the ex valve, it looses seal, same as it passes by the rings. Alky is very clean, depending on oil choice it builds none to very little carbon, and need rebuilding less often.

Alky Animals usually go 2 seasons and we have 14-18 races at Badger with most people also practicing each Sat.

Honest truth is, if the leakdown test says its not leaking down much, not much sense changing parts that are working well. I never have had an issue with parts fatigue with the later versions of any of the Briggs engines

 

[Bob Vehring]

Gary, Again just speaking to our area, but a track that has a long history of Animals also has a good supply of used packages. Yes you can buy a LO for $550. Add in mount, clutch, pipe and the small stuff, easily 100 on the cheap side 200 if you get a good clutch and mount. Here its common to find good used packages in the $1000-$1500 range with good tires and a proven history. Regan takes in alot of karts on trade or buys out people moving on. Cleans them up and pushes them out the door just so we can get new people racing here

[Bob Vehring]

I hope the best for Badger, but I am no longer politically involved, several months ago, all 3, 4 cy board members resigned over the way some things were being handled. It is now run by 2 cy people

Funny, but true story, must be 15 years ago but something I always remembered. On the very first version of Bob Evens D board, there was a discussion going on which was a better way to run a track. Private ownership or a club situation. Someone made the comment that in a club situation, egos will always destroy it

[Author]

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