Is the US Rotax Motor worth $500 more?

[Dave Stevens]

quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar Aguilera:

So is $500 worth it to you? Should be the question not is the motor worth $500 extra dollars. The $500 should be worth it to help the series progress.

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It's not about the money, Oscar. It's about the perception I have of SSC trying to artificially inflate the price vs what others running the exact same thing in other parts of the world pay. Nothing more. How else does one explain a US$31 spark plug? (yes kids, I know about the Autolite thing...) I mean, they can't be starving, they just ponied up the cash to use Tracy's name. The thing I don't dig the most, isn't the dough, it's SSC appearing to be trying to keep me from getting the best deal possible, by attempting to restrict imports. I would rather buy the engine at US$1500, and pay the extra US$500 IF I decided to run the RMC, rather than paying it up front. They can charge US$2100 if they want, just don't try to stop me from getting a better deal abroad if I can. If I can't race that motor in their series, so be it. If I'm not running the RMC, why should I subsidize it? It's not the money, it's the principle.

I'm all for a guy making a buck, and I don't mind paying a little (or even a lot) more if I think I'm getting some kind of value. The kart I'm building right now is going to cost about a grand more than if I pieced together from deals on the 'net. One of the reason's is I chose a full service dealer nearly 200 miles from me when the regional Rotax guys are just up the road. The locals are well stocked, but only with KARBZ/CRG/Rotax stuff. Good stuff sure, but not necessarily what I need or want. I want a choice. That is why I went to a full service dealer with with a couple of engine and chassis lines, an engine and fab shop, with a functional race team and school, that run in our region. The lack of sales tax just means I don't have to hammer ol' Ray too much on the prices, he wins, I win. ;-)

It's the stuff that I do pay more for and not get any extra value from, is where I have a problem. That's my beef with the extra dough to subsidize the US RMC program.

I'd love to hear from someone at SSC regarding this.

Dave

[Oscar Aguilera]

Question?
Did Rotax go to SSC or did SSC go to Rotax?Everyone assumes SSC is making the price go up. Quite frankly SSC doesn't have to explain themselves.

You make the story line.
The facts are you are going to "make" a new class. You are going to have to import and stock at least 200 motors right form the get go. Let's say 100 come with chassis and 100 are loose. You do the math. Whether SSC was protected by the motor manuf and they get $500 more retail than anyone else, or Rotax tacked on $500 to cover the "free" rides, it still makes very little $$ to stick your neck out on the line. Getting the classes approved and getting people into the first karts isn't cheap. And the rules were made right from the start with no loose ends. Sounds fair to me.

I gather that people feel the wool over them effect. Why? "it's not the $$ it is the Priciple" what a classic emotional statement. This isn't about emotions or highway robbery. This is about math and what it takes to make things work.

The value of this class is what the class offers not that 5 shops carry the same product and you can get a good deal at so and so's shop. It is spec.

The only reason this has not happened before is because the last "spec" class was made by using a great motor that had become outdated everywhere else. Go pick any big car spec class and there is usually one guy making all the parts and chassis and selling them at a premium price given that the quality is lacking. HE or she also paid to get his event as an exclusive deal. There are no big car world wide spec classes are there?

This is what every American driver has wanted if they want to go race "mano a mano" across the pond. No more the "X" kart factory foriegn guys get better motors than me. Or their factory guys "x" brand tires are different form mine.

[Rick Crow]

Here is another question, is it worth $1175 for a radiator and a onboard starter? I ran across this engine last night http://www.horstmanclutches.com/mir/fh125.html

Rick

[Jon Andrews]

Rick,

That motor is at least 2yrs old if not more. Horstman sold it originally for $2250 I believe. Basically they are trying to get rid of old stock for $825 (probable at a considerable loss). I dare say that if a couple of hundred people said they wanted these motors for a new spec class, there wouldn't be many avaiable.

Jon.

[Jon Andrews]

Oscar,

You are still not understanding the intent of the posts here....

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Did Rotax go to SSC or did SSC go to Rotax?Everyone assumes SSC is making the price go up. Quite frankly SSC doesn't have to explain themselves.

Good point. But it would still be interesting to hear SSC's response.

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The facts are you are going to "make" a new class. Whether SSC was protected by the motor manuf and they get $500 more retail than anyone else, or Rotax tacked on $500 to cover the "free" rides, it still makes very little $$ to stick your neck out on the line. Getting the classes approved and getting people into the first karts isn't cheap. And the rules were made right from the start with no loose ends. Sounds fair to me.

The part you fail to explain is why the rest of the world can import, promote, "pay for the free rides", get the class approved, stick their neck out blah, blah blah and do
it for $500 LESS per engine.

The US market is receiving the SAME product, marketing and promotion that everyone else in the world is getting, yet we are paying $500 more. THIS iS THE KEY QUESTION.

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This isn't about emotions or highway robbery.

Nope, just why I don't have an extra $500 in my wallet .

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The value of this class is what the class offers not that 5 shops carry the same product and you can get a good deal at so and so's shop. It is spec.

Please explain the extra $500 worth of "VALUE" we are getting in the US?

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There are no big car world wide spec classes are there?

Formula Ford?

Jon.

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Jon Andrews ]

[Marc Miller]

Still no one has answered what the duty and shipping costs are of these things.

SSC has to purchase these from europe... and they are engines, so duties will be much higher than on "non-motorized" equipment.

The trade agreements in europe are pretty darn leniant when it comes to tariffs, etc between countries... so it is much more expensive to export to the US compared to that of other Eruo countries.

Does anyone know what the cost is?

MM

[bird]

I think I read somewhere that racing machinery has some sort of exemption (I was researching setting up a grey import company but decided it would be better for people to support their local dealers, and also I didn't think I could charge a much reduced price and still make 1/3 profit)

[Nick Weil]

Jeez... I leave town for a few days and the Rotax fire is still flaming. Kind of funny in a way. Here's some food for thought.

Many of us put a $$ figure on our personal time. Just for arguements sake, let's say we are all real cheap... $25 an hour... Well below what most professionals charge for their time. Now figure out the amount of time we have all spent complaining and debating the 'mysterious' $500 difference between the U.S. price and the rest of the world. Some of us it would seem have already 'donated' a good chunk of our $$ into this discussion and the price still has not gone anywhere.

How many people on this thread that are complaining about the price actually already own a Rotax? Please stand up and be counted

If the Rotax isn't worth the price they want for it, people will stop paying it. If the people stop paying that price then SSC must lower theirs or send the motors back to Gunskirchen, Austria. If you don't like the price, don't buy one, or buy one from some other country and 'stick' it to your local Rotax Dealer. Please stop complaining and let's put our time to something more constructive like how we Yankee Capitalists can get fast enough to make a good showing at the World Finals or at our local club races


Nick

[Dave Stevens]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Weil:

How many people on this thread that are complaining about the price actually already own a Rotax? Please stand up and be counted

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I MAY buy one next Tues, (I'm buying some engine next week) but I'm waiting to see how many up here run that class before I get one. If it looks decent, I'll pick one up to run regionally until I feel comfortable while I'm still building the shifter. If not, I'll go straight to the shifter, though not compete for a little while.

So, I have to own one to have an opinion? Right.......

Seems to me most of the noise is coming from those that are for whatever reason, trying to justifiy their purchases.

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Please stop complaining and let's put our time to something more constructive

People are just as free NOT to participate or read posts of threads. Several of us are having a civil discussion regarding some questons we have on Rotax pricing in the US. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, regardless of what others think. That's kind of the whole idea behind a message board.

On a somewhat related note....I suppose I'm OK with the name of the "Buffet Masters" class, as long as they call the regular class "Pencil Neck Masters".

Dave

[Stephen Buckley]

Dave S.

Hey, whatever you do is cool, however from a "sh*tload of fun to drive" standpoint, the Max is the way to go. It is sooooooo incredibly fun to race (and to watch) with 10-30 other drivers on the track at the same time. Also, for another $1K or so, you can run a roadrace package (very cool bodywork and belt drive).

Very very fun! Low low maintenance. You can spend all that extra time on yardwork and honey-do's!

[Roy Randolph]

Interesting topic isn't it. But hey this is common practice in most imported items, at least the electronic industry anyway. I use to own a Video/Audio store some years ago. I was a dealer for Pioneer, Sony and other name brand electronics. And in the electronic industry this is (or was)called "Gray Market Items". If you think the profit margin is thin in karting try electronics!

Back then when some yahoo imported a stereo (or other electronic item) from abroad that just cut into the dealers sales and when you have to purchase so much per month to keep your dealership that hurts! But the catch here is if the electronics wasn't made for the US market, but is sold over here you will NOT get a US warranty (many items where the same, except the PAL, SECAM and NTSC video equipment). I ran across this many, many times. Some guy would save a few bucks and then have problems and bring the electronic item to me wanting help. There was NOTHING I could do (and in most cases I really wasn't motivated to do anything). If he wanted warranty work had to box it up and ship it back overseas. (A lot of your really cheap mail order electronics is Gray Market, so be careful)

Now this has been almost 10 years since I was in the business, alot could have changed by now, but I doubt it. Sounds like the same issue here to me. So, if you want to buy over seas let the overseas guys service you after the sale, don't expect much help from the Kartshop you could have purchased the engine from, and if the rules say only a certain serial numbered engines can be run in the RMC or RMOC then thats the rules)
Well thats my take.

[Andy Seesemann]

I have too many thoughts to organize, so I'll just throw them out in no particular order and let the hate mail pile up......

If you don't want to race in a Challenge event, you can get your MAX motor from any source you choose. Don't complain, just write the check.

On a similar thread, you can buy a car in Mexico cheaper than you can in the US. However, if you want to drive in the US, you'd better buy one here that meets highway and emissions standards.

Many international manufacturers set their prices according to the mean income of a particular country. How do you think that the mean income of the US compares to others in the world? Do you think that goods in Mexico or India cost the same as they do in Japan or France?

Fuel in Europe costs $3-$4 a liter, I think. Europe is much closer to the Persian Gulf than the US is. That doesn't seem fair. Where is the thread on this travesty?

As a ROTAX dealer I have VERY good information about the cost and margin statistics of this package. SSC's margin on this product is slimmer than that of other products, in fact, in downright stinks. Our dealer margins are about the same as other big ticket items, such as chassis. As someone stated previously, the margins on big ticket items are far less than less costly ones. This is a fact of retail.

Now remember, I am not an economist, an importer, an international shipper or a currency exchanger. I don't have the expertise that has been shown by many of the previous posters, so go easy on me.

-ANDY

[bird]

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Fuel in Europe costs $3-$4 a liter, I think. Europe is much closer to the Persian Gulf than the US is. That doesn't seem fair. Where is the thread on this travesty?

I got back from the World FA and FSA Champs last year to find my entire country had ground to a halt over protests about this issue. Didn't make a hell of a difference, but car grey imports brought the prices down for them.

Maybe Rotax Max is being aimed at a different market in the US (yuppies basically) to the rest of the world (people with no money like us) but it doesn't excuse Bombardier (if Andy is correct about SSCs margins) thinking America is one great big pot of money

[Chad Stapleton]

quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Seesemann:

you can buy a car in Mexico cheaper than you can in the US. However, if you want to drive in the US, you'd better buy one here that meets highway and emissions standards.


Fuel in Europe costs $3-$4 a liter, I think. Where is the thread on this travesty?


-ANDY

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Andy, not hitting at you, but Mexican cars ?? - The Rotax is by definition the same spec (except the dealer stamp) , where ever you buy it.
European fuel is $1.5 -$2.0 per litre (UK prices- one of the highest) and as Mary-Ann said, Boy have there been some discussions over that! - Also, we know where the extra $$'s go from the fuel... Taxes ! From what you are suggesting, its Rotax who are getting the extra $$'s from this deal, which in my mind is less acceptable than the dealers getting it (the $'s are going out of your local economy and the country !!)

[Oscar Aguilera]

I am not speaking for SSC or Rotax. So I don't have an answer as to why it is $500 dollars more. I do agree with everyone that it is not good to pay $500 more for anything by which is mandated to you when you can buy it for less elsewhere.

Momma always said "worry about the things you can change and forget about the rest that can't be changed". For now it looks as though there will be no short term changes.

I can only speak for myself that as having been in karting for so long this kart(Rotax) is the best thing for karting that I have seen.
So to answer the original post one more time, Yes the Rotax is worth $500 more in the US because of the value to karting and not because it is any different in value as a price.