Club racing needs the LO206 class

[Randy Lyon]

I think an LO206 class could be a great addition for clubs such as ours (PKRA in Phoenix) because I think the potential is there to attract a lot of people to karting that would not be interested in any of our existing classes.

I think current classes all have significant barriers that stop a lot of people from racing karts.

Those are:

1. The motors for many existing classes cost a lot of money.

2. Competitive sprint Chassis are more expensive for high HP classes.

3. Most classes have either high maintenance costs or competitiveness is affected by frequency of maintenance.

4. Motors in many classes require a lot of specialized tuning knowledge and skills to be competitive.

5. Karting consumables are expensive.

The LO206 lowers many of those barriers significantly. It could open karting up to a LOT of people who are not willing to put in the time or money the other classes require. Some of those people would probably move "up" to other classes as they get the bug and are willing to pay more for faster speeds or become interested in aspects of racing other than just driving and basic chassis setup. But there is nothing wrong with someone staying in the class if that's all they can or want to spend.

I don't see the LO206 as an alternative to existing classes, but rather a way to bring karting to people who would never start racing in any existing class. It could be the "value menu" of karting.

I think it's safe to say that anyone already racing an HPV, Yamaha, TaG or shifter would rather do that than race an LO206. But then again, I think many racing any of those would rather be racing an Indy, F1 or Cup car. I don't think they are suffering greatly being "stuck" in an HPV, TaG or shifter. And the same would be true for anyone only willing or able to spend the money for an LO206. When it comes to kart racing (or having brake cleaner sprayed in your eyes - for Jason) there is no bad, only good and better.

More about the various barriers and how the LO206 affects them:

1. Motor cost.

I actually think initial cost is not as significant as some other barriers but every little bit helps and some potential karters may focus on initial costs. An LO206 is around $700 including mount, carb, pipe, clutch, etc. That's cheaper than other classes, at least at our club

2. Chassis expenses.

I think sprint chassis development is primarily to improve performance in high HP, sticky tire classes. While I believe most new models offer little improvement, especially for club racing, some racers still feel compelled to upgrade frequently or feel disadvantaged if they don't or can't.

The lower the HP, the less value there is to having the latest and greatest chassis. There are LOTS of cheap used chassis that perform as well as any new one when used in a low HP class such as Sportsman or LO206. Low HP classes are also easier on chassis wear and tear so chassis can be used longer.

3. Motor upkeep expenses.

All existing classes at our club have significantly higher ongoing maintenance costs than the LO206. And to make things worse, in many classes, there are performance advantages if parts are replaced more often or if the motor is "blueprinted". Existing 2 stroke classes run much higher RPMs than an LO206 and high RPMS mean parts wear out faster and performance falls off faster. The simple fact is, current classes demand a relatively high percentile income. I absolutely believe the costs of something like an LO206 class would make karting accessible to 5 times (or more) as many people as any of the current classes. How many TaG motors are making their relatively affluent club racing owners wince at the repairs and upkeep? The low RPM LO206 can be used for several seasons with no professional maintenance. And it’s a sealed motor so it won't get beat by someone spending more money on blueprints or new rings every race, etc.. Plus it is easy for a club to tech.

4. Specialized motor tuning skills.

Many, if not all, existing classes require significant tuning and adjustment skills.

Two stroke performance is more sensitive to carb tuning than 4 strokes and many 2 stroke classes have more complex carburetors. It takes time to learn how to get the best performance out of them; some carbs, like an ICC, take more knowledge than some college courses. And many 2 strokes, if you get it wrong, you stick the motor, miss a race and get a fat repair/parts bill. The LO206 has a simple carb that may need nothing more than changing the clip on the needle even over a wide range of conditions. There are no on-track adjustments available or needed.

Many classes have all sorts of other adjustments that are required either for good performance or to be legal. Having to learn all these arcane skills at the same time they are trying to learn to tune a chassis and learn to drive is just too much for many potential karters to take on all at once. By design, the LO206 doesn't have such requirements.

5. Karting consumables.

Tires, fuel, oil, etc. costs vary among the existing classes, but are a big part of many existing classes. The higher the HP and the stickier the tires, the more it costs for tires. The LO206 has less HP than our club's existing senior classes. Even with our current spec tire, an LO206 could be competitive for a whole season on a set of tires. If the club wanted to lower costs even further to bring in new karters, an even harder tire could be speced for the LO206. Due to the lower HP, a harder tire would not take away from the experience as much as it would in a high HP class.

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I see a lot of debate on other forums about the LO206 vs "clone" motors such as those Harbor Freight sells for hundreds less than an LO206. And for some people already into kart racing, the clone may be better and may be cheaper than an LO206.

But the clones don't break down as many barriers to new karters. The clones are NOT designed for racing. They are certainly not factory blueprinted to ensure comparable performance. They are not sealed to keep them equal. A clone require more DIY time and skill to get one ready to race on a kart.

The purchase price of the motor is not the biggest barrier to karting. There may be thousands of people who would buy and race an LO206 but would Craigs List a brand new TaG or Shifter if you gave it to them for free. They would not be interested in running even further off the pace because they haven't mastered motor tunng skills. And they wouldn't spring for the tires, maintenance, etc. that "free" TaG or shifter would need on a regular basis.

Just my 2 cents.

[Todd Weaver]

I agree with many of the things you say and you make a very good case. However, I think a better long term answer would be to substitute the Briggs World Formula for the LO206. If you look hard enough, you can find new packages for well under a grand and that includes the header, fuel pump, air filter AND spec clutch.

Todd

[Roger Hargens]

Hey guys,

Tell me more about the pros and cons of the LO206 vs. World Formula re: start-up cost differences, reliability/maintenance, speed/fun comparison, etc.

Assuming that these are inboard drive, do these engines easily fit on a "standard" euro style two stroke chassis (seat strut intereference, etc.) or would the racer have to buy a 4-stroke specific kart? The vast majority of the used sprint karts in our region are two stroke "euro" type chassis. We looked into using a new "lower priced" euro sprint chassis with a Honda 4-stroke, but the right side strut was in the way, and off-setting the engine created some other issues.

Enlighten me.

Thanks,
Roger
_________________
Roger S. Hargens
www.prospeedkartsports.com

[Michael Taksa]

Roger,
Some of two wtroke chassis rear frame cross members could potentially create a problem with interfiring with rear sprocket. This info is from other threads in these forums.

[Paul Williamson]

I am a Briggs newbie...

I have now seen at least 6 Briggs Animals mounted to a 2cycle chassis, including mine. I had to bend the seat strut next to the engine, and if it were really in the way, I would have cut it off and used aftermarket clamp on struts...

You will be limited with how big of a rear sprocket you can use, but it poses no issue, as I use smaller driver gears to get the ratio I need...

Here is how I see it:

LO206, 8 or 9 horsepower, maybe... about $700, ready to bolt on to engine mount. Spec clutch and pipe, 6100 rev limiter. If you are comfortable that Briggs is building these things to correct tolerances, good, because it is sealed. As well, once the seal is broken for a rebuild, the motor cannot be resealed for LO206 class. The good news, you can probably go two seasons before a rebuild, and a short block won't be bad to buy...

Animal, bare bones, 8 horsepower maybe... about $700... Up to the club to spec a clutch... no rev limiter... easy to work on...

Animal, stock gas class, built (by yourself, not a builder)to be competitive in in IKF or WKA, 11 horsepower, maybe... maybe $900...

World Formula, out of the box, about 12 or 13 horsepower... about $1000, ready to race, including onboard starter, spec clutch and exhaust. A bit heavier than the LO206 or Animal, but still faster (usually)...

According to my builder, the World Formulas can be competitive out of the box, and don't necessarily need Blueprinting. Whereas, if you want a fast Animal, more needs to be done... Plus, since I had to pay a builder to do my Animal (at least this time), It cost a lot more than $900!

I run the Animal, because that is my club's agenda. It has been explained to me why our club won't run the LO206 or WF, although I am not sure I agree or disagree (doesn't matter what I think, anyhow!!)... Personally, I think WF is the best deal, but not for a beginner, as it is pretty fast.
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My Behavior Does Not Reflect Anything

[Randy Lyon]

Todd,

Regarding World Formula vs LO206, what you said is factually accurate. But the World Formula still has higher barriers for some potential racers. Now, how important those are can be debated and it's completely subjective until its proven, but every additional thing a racer needs to do or know how to do makes the mountain look too high to some. Even the seal is important to reduce the perception or fear of getting beat by someone spending more money. Many newbies just aren't capable of evaluating that for unsealed classes.

There should be a class that requires the absolute minimum amount of knowledge, (technical) skill and cost per season while keeping the motors equal and tech simple. I don't know of another class that beats the LO206 in those areas.

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Paul,

Good info. About club agendas, I think clubs, businesses and racers often look at the sport from the perspective of someone who has already paid their dues. Its easy for people to forget what it was like to start or maybe they were fortunate enough to be affluent and technical enough that neither were an obstacle for them to start. I suspect short sighted kart shops and motor builders absolutely hate the idea of low maintenance kart motors. But I don't think something like an LO206 is competition for their current offerings (although other Briggs classes might be). An LO206 will appeal to people who would never jump head first into other classes. Its about getting new people into karting.

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I'm not in love with the LO206. But i do think karting needs a class that requires the absolute minimal technical and financial resources. The LO206 is here and fits the bill. Even with a class as simple and cheap as the LO206, kart racing will still take a bigger commitment than competing activities but we need to narrow the gap as much as possible.

[Roger Hargens]

Good info guys.

I'm looking for as much feedback as possible from those who've run these various engine packages at the club level. Our local track runs mostly Rotax classes. But the start up cost, for new equipment, is too much for many. Quite a few of our potential racers come from the indoor ranks and some of them find that going straight to a Rotax powered kart is intimidating. So, we're looking for something that is relatively inexpensive to buy, inexpensive to maintain, not intimidating and adaptable to a used or lower cost, new "Euro" style chassis.

The horsepower output of the WF is probably about right. Our track rental karts have nine HP, run on heavier chassis, so about 15 HP on a real racing kart makes sense. I like the electric start feature of the WF as well.



Roger
_________________
Roger S. Hargens
www.prospeedkartsports.com

[charles hunter]

Randy, I do have a HPV4 set up but will be racing in the So-Cal new LO 206 class on the 28th. I don't like the HPV. In fact, I have a brand new motor( ten laps) on a Tony Espirit I really want to get rid of. My mantra is I don't want to go that fast and I think there are alot of others that feel the same way. So you compare the 206 with the world formula you miss the point. It's speed. I want to race and have fun but i don't need the speed and the pounding you get with the higher RPM motors. So I will make the switch. And yes I did get caught trying to enter the kids kart race only because I forgot to shave off my old white beard.
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swampwater smyth concurs "If you aint first, yer last."

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[Tommy Sampson]

Being one of the newbies . I think the 206 is great for getting people like me into the game for a price, that if you get a taste and figure out its not for you, your not to deep into it. I understand that the tech end is a big part of racing, but what a better way to learn then to be at the track with the people who know. Since I bought my 13 year old son a 5 hp briggs we are having the best time learning how to fix things on it. Have a KT 100 also and its tough trying to get it to run right, but its a blast to figure out the problem and fixing it. So I really think that the 206 will bring people in like me and they will stick around once they see how fun this is.

[Mitch Wright]

Dual post I also posted my question on the 4/ area.

Not trying to start anything but I have a question that I have not seen asked but sure some have thought of the same thing regarding the LO206.
The bottom end is sealed and the head, compression and cam lift are tech items. The reason I mention cam lift is that it can vary due to rockers so I assume there must be a max lift at the valve.
From what I read (I have not seen a LO206) out of the box make in the 8 hp range. What is the potential for power gain in the head and carb by maximizing and minimizing the allowed tolerances?
We have been running a sealed GX 200 program here for years that has been very successful for us and the racer. The big difference is we seal the entire engine including the pull starter assembly and carb, like the LO206 when the engine goes soft you replace it.

[John Matthews]

Hi Mitch,

From what I've heard you guys have a great program going up there that allows folks to get into karting at a very reasonable price and have some great racing.

I think the answer to your question is already built into the rule book. Plain and simple it's Stock Animal as it's currently run with full inspection.

Your program works because the operators of your track decided they wanted to do something to bring folks into the sport and you have a local builder/reseller that provides the engines for everyone. Lots of clubs don't have any 4 cycle classes and they already have multiple shops competing for racers dollars. With the LO206 clubs don't have to rely on a local shop to provide all the engines and racers can purchase the engine wherever they want. The top end tech is very simple and you can measure lift at the valve to keep folks from messing with their rockers. Yes, it does let folks re-lap their valves and change springs but IMHO this is a good thing since it can be done by an average home mechanic and should help increase their commitment to the race program.

When the botom end wears out they can replace the short block, have the engine blueprinted for Stock Animal, or build a Limited Modified which I think would be a great step up when folks are ready for more power. This is one of the main reasons I like the LO206 better than WF for areas where there's no 4 cycle racing currently. We know that after a season running stock a certain number of folks will want to tinker and the rulebook as it stands now provides several classes to accomodiate this.

Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[Todd Hinton]

So John, you really dont think "part sorting" or "blueprinting" wont be an advantage for the LO206?
_________________
Hinton Motorsports
Margay Chassis
NFRA F200 Racing Series

[John Matthews]

No Todd,

I think for the spirit and intent of the class it's irrelevant.

If we were talking about folks in North Carolina running dirt oval with 35 entries in the class then it's gonna make a difference but for sprint racing in places where there's no existing 4 cycle class you're not likely to attract folks who are that sophisticated, or who care if they're making .2 hp more than the other guy.

Like I said, when the classes get established and there's more than just a few folks out there you can switch to Stock Animal or Limited Modified, or F200, or whatever folks want to do.

I'm pretty sure when you were turning folks onto 4 cycle in NorCal most of the guys you started with were content to be fairly equal and race each other on driving and set-up rather than ultimate horsepower. If somebody is comming at this looking for maximum performance they're going to pass right by any of us 4 cycle guys and head straight for the shifters.

Out here in Arizona I'm just trying to establish a group of folks who want to have fun and race each other clean. If anyone decides they want to build their head to the max specs they can go right here

http://karting.4cycle.com/faq.php?faq=jamie_webb#faq_anhead

and build their head themselves, or they can call me or any other builder and have it done for them. Dave Klauss outlined the technical reasons why this won't buy you too much performance with the 6100rpm rev-limiter in his response to the question here.

http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?t=244411

But, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter. Briggs is used to folks trying to shoot holes into their Animal program but it's done pretty well and they seem plenty willing to address any issues that come up. They took a big hit with the sealing recall but they are determined to make this program sucessful and are putting the resources behind it that it needs to do that.

It's intended to be an entry level class and any club that chooses to run it would do well to keep it that way, there are plenty of other classes for folks who want to outspend each other but without a reasonable way to get started it's pretty unlikely they'll ever get there.

Thanks for asking,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[David Klaus]

I wanted to post the reply to Mitch's questions that I commented on in another forum. I will reiterate that Honda makes a great product and my response isn't meant to create a Honda verses Briggs discussion. I just wanted to draw on a couple things to consider.

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Mitch,
I'll begin to answer this. We have almost 10 years of test data at this point on the Animal platform. One of the critical keys is efficiency. Through analysis and wet flow testing, there is limited efficency that can be had. Between the carb venturi, intake manifold, port, and valve best to worst, flow is limit mainly by the intake valve layout. This, without going too far into this, GREATLY controls any variance. In addition, we have a rev limiter to eliminate variance in springs, a ground cam for consistency, and we control piston pop-up to control the impact of compression.
In addition we own all of our own tooling/inserts. What this translates to is repeatability over the long run. The claim on Honda's repeatability comes from low volume. Make less pieces and your tooling wears out slow and your machining fixturing wears slower. With our program we now fall in the range of .5% of the Honda volume so our consumption of tooling also slows to increase repeatability.
A couple things to look at with a Honda program. I'll be upfront and say at this point I do not know where Honda is at with their emissions changes, but they will be coming if they haven't surfaced already. This is one of the same things that will affect stability in engines that are copies. Most likely this is timing, piston/ring design, cylinder sleeve materials, exhaust port changes, carburetor jetting, etc.. You also have to begin factoring in that these engines are beginning to be manufactured in two different countires. Using the QMA group as an example, they are having to react to the variances in dual-sourced parts right now on their 120/160 engines.

I think once these get out on a track the repeatability of the design will translate into some incredible, cost-effective racing with a hand-built engine that can 'grow' as a racer looks to advance.

[Max Wood]

David,

Since you're in this discussion, I'd like to ask a question. I was told by a Motorsports dealer that the LO206 could be resealed by Motorsports shops. Is this true? I thought these engines would only be sealed at the factory.

TIA,
Max