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Mike Burrell
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 719
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 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Wehrheim wrote: | | All the top Rotax guys were running TaG Carbs. I know this for a fact. But the biggest thing is the weight. The weight needs to be at 365 like at the Supernats. Corey was really fast but not unbeatable. The thing about the Rotax is that the hardest power to find is midrange and it has it. If you have gobs of that you can almost do anything with the power band. Same with the rok tt, but stars fixed that without a weight penalty. |
Speaking as the TAG Masters "Kart Owner" (Monza/Rotax), it was straight out of the box -with the old style clutch and counter balance. In fact, we didn't know John Crow was even going to make it to the race until 12/23 so we didn't have time to make it a TAG setup & wouldn't have known how anyway...
To be totally honest, we didn't even change a jet.
This whole discussion is centered around the performance of 3 excellent drivers in TAG senior. Sera would have won on a MAC 90; I've rarely seen a karter that consistent on lines, braking points, steering wheel movement. I got a real close look at his driving taking pictures for NKN from around the track...
Let's consider the TAG Masters for a moment. I think a Sonic was fast time(?). A Leopard was second & right on the tail of the winning Rotax in the final. John Dixon (running at about 397lbs. on a Rotax) finished 2nd in the prefinal about 5 lengths behind Crow who was right on weight.
What's my point? It's to early to say an engine has an advantage over another. I bet the Rotax engines get it handed to them at New Castle! And then we'll be having this conversation about the Sonic or Roc TT...
The sad thing is, the "big teams" will have the opportunity to test a Rotax, Leopard, Rok TT, and Sonic before the next race at MRP. So all you "independent karters" will have a 1 in 4 chance of having the 'right combination' for the next track. Sad huh?
So, for all you guys who are tired of playing the "engine of the week" game come back to Yamaha Can! It's been the same engine since 1978, same exhaust rules since the class came about, and they're about 1/2 the price of TAG 
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Last edited by Mike Burrell on Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total |
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rusell kirkman
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 53
Location: United States, Indiana, indianapolis
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike arent you a part owner of one of those "big teams" ? |
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Doug Harden
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Indiana, Nashville
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | So, for all you guys who are tired of playing the "engine of the week" game come back to Yamaha Can! It's been the same engine since 1978, same exhaust rules since the class came about, and they're about 1/2 the price of TAG
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I'll supply the brake cleaner!  |
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Marshall Martin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2007
Location: United States, Indiana, South Bend
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Mark,
Welcome to the US to David. I listened to the call on Race Fan Radio and he was obviously the class of the field for the weekend. Congratulations to David and his crew, along with Terrance McCall from BTK as the Arrow importer for a great performance. We will be watching for the results from the FWT. Hope David enjoys his stay in the states.
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Marshall Martin
LSR Motorsports
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marshall@lsrmotorsports.com |
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Mike Burrell
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 719
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Doug Harden wrote: | | Quote: | So, for all you guys who are tired of playing the "engine of the week" game come back to Yamaha Can! It's been the same engine since 1978, same exhaust rules since the class came about, and they're about 1/2 the price of TAG
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I'll supply the brake cleaner! |
Gotta love the inside/local jokes!
Kirkman:
Yes, and what do you think the discussion was about on the way back to the hotel Monday night: "Leopard, Sonic, Rotax, or Rok?" It's sad for all of karting when that decision has to be made...
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rusell kirkman
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 53
Location: United States, Indiana, indianapolis
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Burrell:
I just want to ask are u wanting ppl to go back to Yamaha or are you trying to find a solution to this problem that seems to be taking over the tag class. With you being a "Voice" in karting I would honestly like your opinion on this. Not that we will be joining Tag anytime soon I would just like to know your thoughts on what is the solution to this. You had drivers that gave you feedback and maybe you might be one of the best ones to tell us what you think. As a Father of children in this sport I am just trying to figure out what do we do next go Rotax or do we go Yamaha. i understand half the price but I also understand prices of rebuilds and engine builders. I understand this went away from TAG but give me your opinion. |
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Rick Crist
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 3280
Location: United States, Indiana,
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nice run Julia. It’s always great to hear your hard work and talents pay off. 
Now would someone please put this talented young lady in a competitive, full-time, car ride. 
| rusell kirkman wrote: | Burrell:
With you being a "Voice" in karting I would honestly like your opinion on this.
I understand this went away from TAG but give me your opinion.
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Rusell -
Undoubtedly your new to karting, and new to EKN.
rusell kirkman
Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Total posts: 22
Yep, that’s what I thought.
Anyway, Burrell isn’t the "Voice" in karting … that would be me. <that’s a joke Rusell> And if you want the "Voice‘s" opinion, especially if it’s TaG related, you’re a little late to the party because all of these karting organizations have worn me out the last few years. Heck, I’ve forgotten more about TaG than Burrell ever knew in the first place. <that’s a joke too Rusell> But if you really want to know, do a ‘Search Query’ … because as Andy Seesemann said in the Continued Rotax argument thread, http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=77318 - | Andy Seesemann wrote: | | This thread has been written and rewritten about 100 times on this forum. All you have to do is change the names of the motors, drivers and track and its the exact same argument. Every year, at some high profile race, one type of motor seems to have measurable success. |
| Andy Seesemann wrote: | | Nah, we will just insert different names in the thread and start all over again...... |
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Mike Burrell
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 719
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Kirkman:
I wish I knew the answer, and if I did I wish everyone would listen to it 
Classes like Yamaha and Rotax (1 engine make classes) eliminate a lot these issues.
I don't like that Rotax, K-80, and many other single make engine classes eliminate the aftermarket -pistons, rods, etc. So when you have a "bad run of parts" it's tough luck for the karter. TAG has the same issue since with every engine you have to use the OEM part... People can argue the other side of this that an aftermarket increases development cost; but it also increases quality and accountability.
IMO, a class like TAG (multiple engines seeking "parity") will never work. Look at the history of karting: 100cc Controlled was about the same deal 15-20 years ago. You will always have a dominant engine -most often the newest one (due to benefiting from the development of the earlier versions). And each engine will have characteristics that give it an advantage in certain conditions and at certain tracks.
TAG is like Indycar racing was in the mid-90's: you had Ford, Mercedes, Honda, and Toyota. Or like NASCAR in the 80's with Ford, Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile: someone always had an advantage that the others complained about.
CART usually ignored it and told people to get to work in the engine shop. NASCAR would give or take a 1/4" of spoiler or .100 of restrictor plate to try for parity. Results: CART drove up the cost, NASCAR -well they came up with that lame COT where they all look the same except some decals...
Anyway, I don't know the answer for TAG. But for the Kirkman boys (moving up from kid karts in central Indiana), I'd move into the Yamaha Sportsman classes at New Castle's KRA club. You won't find stiffer competition at the Junior level, and there will be 12+ karts per race (x2 races per day).
As for the "Yamaha rebuilds": don't listen to those guys who tell you they need rebuilt every 4-6 races. Call John Dixon, he'll give you an honest opinion (and price) for a Yamaha Sportsman rebuild schedule. (FYI, I only rebuild my Supercan motor once a year).
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rusell kirkman
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 53
Location: United States, Indiana, indianapolis
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Mike, I appreciate your opinion it was informative and appreciated I am glad u responded. |
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Doug Harden
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Indiana, Nashville
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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While not wanting to get too far off topic...I bought my Laukaitis Yamaha in "fresh", but used condition....at least that's what I was told....and ran at least four race weekends, two other heavy lap count practice sessions and a total of 105 hard laps in one afternoon at NCMP...half with a can and half with a pipe....and when we tore it down, it looks great inside.
We're freshening it up and going to run it this year too....
As far as getting Devon a Rotax...well, we've got to save a ton more $$$ and also need to see more than a couple of other kids running them in our area before we could possibly justify running a second kart for him.......
Still pisses me off the the "rules" don't allow a Yamaha on his 'Cadet' chassis, but will allow a Rotax on it.....so not only would we have to find a good used (not all of us can afford new stufff) Junior chassis for his Yamaha ride, but also find a good Mini-Max IF we could justify his Rotax ride.....
No wonder so many leave karting....... |
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Dan Haynes
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 2372
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Ellwood City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Chris L., did you get my PM?
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Blaise Haynes
#3 Arrow X1-CIK
TaG
Cook Racing Engines Parilla Leopard |
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Chris Livengood
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 2432
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Da Burgh
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Jeff DeMello
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 2213
Location: United States, Pittsburgh Pa,
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Chris
I didn't see you down there... where were you???
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Jeff DeMello
Emmick F125 Pavesi |
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Marc Miller
Advertiser
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1834
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Wehrheim wrote: | | Gary, did all the MRP rotax's run stock carb settings? |
Chris - we know each other, so take this to heart. None of the carbs that our team had there were "TAG USA" prepared carbs. We have found RMax legal carbs work best. David Sera told Wes Phillips that he was running stock/legal RMaz set-up as well and I have no reason to doubt that.
He is the Aussie National champion and a consistent top 5 in the world in Rotax World Finals. I can't speak for DiLeo, but I can only assume he was the same - Rotax legal set-ups.
The biggest diff? At 350 vs. 365 with your crippled Flex, there was a difference - that isn't a "Rotax needs to be slowed down" thing - that is a WKA needs to adjust the flex back to the IAME thing. Take away the 3 Rotax National Champions from that race and a ROK would have walked away with the win... so maybe we should be penalizing Roks more now?
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Andre Martins
Advertiser
Joined: 02 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Marc,
It really does not surprise that you would write such a naive statement.
If you really think that an Australian would tell his competitor what carb setting his was using...
It will be very interesting to see the 3 national champions at the winter tour. If we based their performance from last year they should be lucky to finish top 10.
Florida Winter tour results from 2008 in Rotax Senior
Race 1
Driver Finishing position Time
1 48.6
Marco de Leo 3 48.7
Wes Phillips DQ 49.022
2nd Race ( Pre final because Wes was DQ)
Driver Finishing position Time
1 48.7
Marco de Leo 8 48.8
Wes Phillips DQ 48.8
3rd Race
Driver Finishing position Time
1 1.01.2
Marco de Leo 11 1.02.1
4th Race
Driver Finishing position Time
1 1.00.9
Marco de Leo 11 1.01.8
5th Race
Driver Finishing position Time
1 38.0
Marco de Leo 9 38.4
6th Race
Driver Finishing position Time
1 37.7
Marco de Leo 9 38.3
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Andre Martins
Orlando Kart Center
www.orlandokartcenter.com
www.tonykartflorida.com
Tony Kart World Champion - 1986,1987,1989,1991,1992,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999,2000,2004,2006,2007,2008 |
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