EKN Editorial: The Bottom Line w/Rob Howden - 10.22.08

Dave Stevens · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject:

A bare chassis is not a roller. You should know that. At XXX a full roller is US$7900 plus the engine. Look at FOZ, Bailey, PMP or Henchcraft and it's about the same.

John sells a Veloce for US$1995 and a homologated version for US$2395. He's also got a Ninja oval chassis for US$1595.

Dave

Rick Crist · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject:

Roller to roller, no engine …

CRG KT1 125, $4995.00 - http://www.pktaxles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PKTS&Category_Code=CRG

XXX 600 Basic Rolling Chassis Kit, $7895.00 - http://www.triplexraceparts.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TXRC%2D600%2DCH%2D1004

For the price of a Yamaha R6 600cc engine, anyone can be in a competitive micro, cheaper than they can be in a shifter. I do know what good shifter engines sell for. Like it or not Dave, the quoted below is comparable, with-in the aspect of this discussion.

Chad Stapleton · Joined: 19 Jul 2001 Posts: 4403

Benn Herr · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1580

3000.00 in 2008 equals:
2235.09 in 1998
1622.16 in 1988
894.04 in 1978
477.19 in 1968
396.28 in 1958 - when karting started!

All this from here:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
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Benn Herr
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Chandler, Az.

Bob Vehring · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:44 am Post subject:

When doing shows to get people into karting, which I do alot of, I can tell you, theres many types of people coming up an talking to me. There are a few, where money is not really an issue. A TaG, RM or Shifter is not a problem for them price wise, but thats a pretty small percentage.
Usually the first question is, "how fast does it go" I think any of us doing this realize, thats a pretty relative and at this point unimportant question. The second question is almost always the same, and this is the one that makes it work for them, " how much does it cost"? That answer will either, keep them talking, or send them walking. Its not just the price of the kart, some don't even own basic tools. Many have multiple karting age kids, some will need a trailer just to get to the track
When I try to sell karting at a show, I compete with other small motorsport, Jr Drag, Mini Cup cars so on. Karting usually does good in comparison, But as parents, sometimes adults, walk around these shows we also have to compete with all the other booths trying to pull them in, ball sports wrestling/MA, scouting really, anything. The entry level price point is what will sell this.
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George Sunderland · Joined: 26 Jul 2001 Posts: 2006

Benn, in theory you are right. But back in 1968, my mom didn't have to work. Dad's income was enough. In the '70s she had to go to work (fortunately, unlike many women of her time, she had a College degree). Dad didn't lose his job, everything just started getting a LOT more expensive. Guess that's why I started karting around 1975 but didn't get my first NEW kart until 1992. Now, I don't know of a single family in my supposeduly affluent neighborhood that doesn't have both spouses working. Of course now we have cell phones, cable tv, internet, etc. We didn't have any of those bills through the '80s. Of course these things aren't neceesities, but most folks view them as such. A go-kart is not. I made an observation last night.....I went to Walmart to get my kid soda. ALL of the Sam's soda was cleaned out. BUT, there was plenty of name brand Coke products on the shelves. So much for quality. For the next few years, the average Joe will focus on 2 things...necessity and price. You watch, folks will be driving beat up cars around just like the '80s. The ironic thing is since the Euro has plummeted against the $ (finally), now is one of the best times we've seen to get some of that shiney shiney Euro stuff. IF, you have any $ left over...........

Roger Ruthhart · Joined: 24 Jul 2001 Posts: 1298

Americans who aren't involved in karting still understand and appreciate Briggs & Stratton. They have had lawnmowers, snow blowers, tillers, etc. with motors that have delievered long and reliable performance.

Part of the problem with getting the novice into karting is understanding all of the engine options. Seems to me the reliability of the B&S name, not to mention its long track record in the sport, would make it the easiest sell to people from outside that we're trying to get involved in karting. I know the price point is key, but I'd try to make it happen with a Briggs. Nothing against any other makes, please, but just for the reasons given above -- plus they have given a lot back to our sport.

George Sunderland · Joined: 26 Jul 2001 Posts: 2006

Yeah, I know the USAToday is a liberal rag but they did have a full front page spread on enduro karting years ago so they can't be all that bad. Anyways, just saw this.........

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-10-31-spending-incomes_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Still think folks won't think twice about plopping down $3K for a kart????? You can say racing isn't cheap but I know plenty of folks who do it on the cheap. IF I ran a shop these days, I would focus on selling and supporting used stuff for the forseeable future. Ones who do that effectively and smartly will do fine.

John Matthews · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:00 am Post subject:

Greg Wright · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:18 am Post subject:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but we all agree that perhaps the sport has been aiming too high for a while.

On this proposed package are we aiming too low??
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John Matthews · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:50 am Post subject:

Hi Greg,

I really don't think so.

The thing about 4 cycle as opposed to 2 cycle is that even though you get less HP for a given displacement the HP and torque curves are much more forgiving for novice drivers.

The LO206 should make peak HP around 5k rpm and the curve should be pretty flat. This means that your driving experience should be better when you first start out, especially when you mess up a corner and loose momentum you'll be able to get back up to speed much quicker than with a similar powered 2 cycle engine.

There's always more powerful options available and doubtless many folks will still want to start out in shifter or TaG. This just gives an option for those who have a lower budget or don't really want to start their kid out with a 22hp Jr. TaG setup.

Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

Rick Crist · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:07 am Post subject:

Bob Vehring · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:32 am Post subject:

So tell me Rick. why did you see a need to attach my name to that quote?
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www.4cyclecentral.com

John Matthews · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:23 am Post subject:

Hi Rick,

I don't think it's narrow minded or short sighted to ask folks to respond to the topic posted. It's just a suggestion after all....

There are pages of debate on this thread about 2 stroke direct drive classes. Simple? Yes. What the thread is talking about? Not so much....

Now we have folks from overseas telling the newbies that are interested in this concept that they're not "typical"; well, how do they know? I've based my comments and observations on the past 5 years running my business. They might have a similar background but there are many, many differences between the US and UK where road racing is concerned.

Just for your information I'm an independent business person. I don't have any financial ties to Briggs other than being a dealer. I also sell the $129- clone engines and have run them both on sprint and dirt oval karts.

Also, I started out in karting in 1977 with a KT100 kart from Yamaha that my dad and I quickly found out wouldn't be competitive, this forced us to upgrade to an Invader chassis during my first season. I don't think this would have been possible if my dad wasn't a working engineer with a good salary, or if I had siblings that were also involved. This is why I find this thread compelling, I lived it as a kid.

I'm quite familiar with the blue clone movement and have been trying to get it going on the sprint side of karting for quite some time now. However, I was thrilled when Briggs announced the LO206 because like another poster has pointed out the general public is well aquainted with Briggs and their name conveys a familiarity that no other product in karting has. I don't work for them but I do feel they have a better chance at gaining acceptance in the 2 cycle dominated world of sprint karting.

Way back when I started out with computer forums it was all text based BBS systems and we had plenty of folks out there who would take the threads off in different directions for whatever reason. It hasn't changed in all these years and I don't suspect it ever will. Like I said in an earlier post, maybe this thread has run it's course.
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

Rob Howden · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject:

Rick,

I'm not really sure why you feel the need to constantly jump into this thread with negative comments and accusations. This is all about trying to build a program that will address one particular problem, the lack of an affordable entry level class. It's intent is not to save karting as a whole, it's just one single solution to one of the problems.

A while back, George Rossi slammed this concept as well, saying that the concept was 'wrong' and that we should be providing better arrive-and-drive league-style programs. Now maybe this is just a stretch Wink

, but maybe we could do both. Maybe, just maybe, the entry level package we're developing isn't 'wrong'....maybe it's part of the puzzle. I love the idea of building better arrive-and-drive series, because they allow guys to get into the sport with zero overhead for tools etc. If they fall in love with it, they'll want their own kart. I remember how good I felt when I finally owned my own kart. We started www.indoorkartingnews.com because we understand that this is a popular entry point for karters right now. It doesn't mean that this entry level program is wrong....

You wrote that your think the $129 engine deal is 'done and it's works'...well, I don't agree. Yes, it's a cool deal and is bringing people out to the track. That's awesome. I'm not sure how many years you've been in karting, but anyone who has been around for at least 10 years has seen at least one 'cycle' in this sport. And things happens again and again in karting. This clone program will get bastardized like any other class because there are no real rules or stability in the manufacturing program. Guys will eventually buy 40 of them to build three really good ones. It WILL happen. Is the clone deal good for the sport?...sure, it's getting guys racing. But, you don't base a program to bring people into the sport on a company and engine supplier like Harbor Freight.

I'm leaning towards the Briggs 206 because of so many factors. It's got the name recognition and comes from a company that supports karting. It's a quality engine and has a sealed bottom end and will run forever. I'd expect that regularly changing the oil and installing new valve springs every year will be the extent of the maintenace. It's also going to be more reliable and ultimately safer than the clone. Sooner or later, one of those clone flywheels is going to detonate and we'll see what happens. The manufacturing quality just isn't there to run 5500 rpm, with a spike to 7000 is someone loses a chain.

And as has been stated many times, the stock KT100 is a great class and a great option. But you're just not going to get it in at $3000 for a turn-key package and like I said, the two-stroke and the carb tuning are a little intimidating. We keep going over this, but it's the straight truth. Great second-level program.

To end this, you keep accusing other guys of pushing the Briggs for other ulterior motives. It seems to me that you're battling them equally from the other side...should we accuse you of working on behalf of someone else? The bottom line is that a vast majority of the guys posting to this thread just want to see karting get better.
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