EKN Editorial: The Bottom Line w/Rob Howden - 10.22.08

[Rob Howden]

[George Sunderland]

Rob, are you familiar w/ these guys? Doesn't get any cheaper or more fun than this. Too bad I don't live in the Northeast or Michigan area. Just MHO but THIS is what karting is all about. It's how it started and it will always be there. This stuff will still be around long after the TaGs, WaGs and GeeWhiz's of tomorrow have come and gone.....


http://grasspass.org/

[Joe Woronka]

Sorry Rob, David, etc...

It was meant to be a bit sarcastict. 13 pages of ,no listen to me, let's argue facts, instead of brainstorming concepts. Not saying there isn't good content just alot of side tracks to wade through.

I never said mandate new equipment just promote new. If you want the support of manufactures there needs to be a reason for them to be involved. Again it needs a 5 year bussiness plan, I know a new concept for karting. Perception of fairness is a large part of the equation.

Joe Woronka
_________________
JW's Eurotech Racing

"Driving fast is like sex, all men think they are good at it." Jay Leno

[Rob Howden]

[michael schorn]

[Chad Stapleton]

[John Matthews]

Hi Chad,

I'm pretty sure the $2995 mark Rob quotes for a complete turn key package is reasonable for a kart that will be competitive and upgradeable. The cheapest I've been able to come up with for my cost to build new chassis is about $1400. I do have some experience with several lower cost products but I won't get into that here.

IMHO most people starting out with a $1500 budget would be best served with a used chassis and a new engine package. Ideally purchased from a local racer or shop that can get them started out with tire pressures and set-up info.

If you look at the people on this thread you'll notice quite a few of us run karting businesses. Of course there is "commercial enterprise" involved here. For the average racer who's already involved it might not make a whole lot of difference how many new people start each year. But, for those of us in the industry it literally means the difference between being in business or not. We know there needs to be a place for folks who are just getting started and equipment that is reasonable in price, performance, and quality. And those of us who are in business are just the ones who need to be having this discussion.

Clubs will make classes for whatever shows up, that's how we ended up with so many in the first place. But when someone new comes to my shop and asks how to get involved I would like to have options they can afford with a quality level that I can support. The first step in making this happen is gaining acceptance for an inexpensive 4 cycle engine. It doesn't need to be the same engine for the whole country, just as long as it's something that's inexpensive, simple to operate, and doesn't require a whole lot of modification or tuning. My perference is to avoid claimer classes and all the politics that go along with them. Simple tech inspection where the winners can get used to the process of going to the tech barn without having to pay an engine builder to put their stuff back together would be better for this type of class.

Support from manufacturers and retailers would help this along way faster than otherwise. Sure, you could say most local clubs have KT100 or stock Animal classes but if you look at them you'll often find out they are dominated by experts who have tons of experience. IMHO, the best thing we could do is create a "novice" class where people can only stay for a season or two. Then there should be a simple (and cheap) way to upgrade your existing equipment for the next level. I happent to think that Briggs LO206 program would be ideal for this since the base engine is easily upgraded and the classes already exist in the sanctioning bodies rulebooks.

Using a super-low-cost imported chassis/engine might not be satisfactory once folks get some experience and realize they will need to start all over again buying new stuff. While it's true that as retailers we do make the most money from new folks getting into the sport most of us also spend quite a bit of time getting these folks up to speed. What we want most are customers who will come back season after season and many of us believe that by getting them started in a basic class where they can learn the fun damentals is the best way to promote that.

Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[George Sunderland]

We all know opinions are like....well you know.....everybody has one. Mine is, I'm with Chad. Sure seems folks are trying to use a manufacturer driven solution to fix a manufacturer driven problem. $3K is an outrageous sum to the average Joe especially for the next few years. You can talk quality this and quality that but at the end of the day, you're asking a guy to explain to his wife why he needs to spend $3K on a go-kart when their 401K matchings have just been suspended and neither of them is sure to have a job next week. Once upon a time when we didn't have new classes every year, there were lots of parts vendors at the tracks and they all seemed to make out alright. Now, you can't get anything at the track and it seems every rule or class is made at a manufacturer's beckon call and they are struggling. No wonder karting businesses are in trouble. They can't be left holding the bag with worthless obsolete inventory at the end of the month when the newest gizmo comes out!!!!! Keep it simple and make it more inclusive and less exclusive. Forget who you are serving and there will soon be no-one left to serve........ How is it that a micro sprint chassis with shocks, rack, Wilwood brakes, etc etc is cheaper than a kart chassis????? Folks act like a guy getting into racing doesn't have options. Or a computer to shop around? I was wrong, this isn't the same movie I've seen before. It's a sequel. And like all sequels, the ending will be worse than the orginal...............

[John Matthews]

If you're worried about paying your mortgage don't go racing. We can't hope to fix the whole economy but American enterprise created the sport of karting and it might just have something to do with helping it make a comeback.

Stock Animal already is a class. It's not new, just the LO206 which is 99% Animal.

Used chassis are cheap but if you don't like my numbers for building a new one go ahead and price it out yourself. Maybe our components are too expensive for some reason, maybe they're made overseas and we're paying a premium for low volume. I'll have to look at sourcing kart components from micro-sprint suppliers.

I've been on the "karting is too expensive" kick for years now and it seemed like nobody was listening. Now Rob has tried to get this discussion going and as a manufacturer/dealer I'm interested in what he (and everyone else) has to say.

The important thing Rob said when this started out was this isn't for you guys who are already involved, it's for the newbies that are just starting out. If you have a suggestion I'm all ears but if your suggestion is just "it won't work" then I'm not interested.

The whole idea here is to "Keep it simple and make it more inclusive and less exclusive" if that isn't clear from the title and posts I don't know what else to say.

Maybe this thread has run it's course
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[E J Resnick]

As one of the newbies that this potential class seems to be targeted at, I think the $3k entry price is reasonable. People seem to be forgetting that the $3k isn't a sunk cost like entry fees, you get a kart that has value and that you can sell later and recoup some of the expense. And after this class has been around for a year or two, you will be able to buy a used version of this car for a very reasonable $1,500 or so (a great starting price for newbies). It will always be most expensive in the first year because everything will have to be new. I also think newbies would like to have a product that is supported by a manufacturer or local shops so we have someone that can teach us about our karts. We are newbies after all and need someone to help us along. If F1 Outdoors can get a program like this up and running in '09, I am in!

[Rick Crist]

[Alan Dove]

[Dave Stevens]

George, where are you getting complete micro sprint rollers for less than a TaG or 4/ chassis?

Chad, have you seen or driven one of the low cost clone import karts? They aren't anything like the Margay or the Freeline entry level kart.

Dave

[Bob Vehring]

I think Johns post 3 up from here really sums it up. I know John, I know he has a very good understanding of karting, over a very long time, and is very active in his area. He understands it.
If your going to try to invent a whole new class, with spec's for everything, really I'm sorry, but it wont get in here at Badger, several reasons.

1,We already have 20 classes to get in, in an eight hour day.
2, we already have both Animal and Can classes, which is where most new people start.
3, We already have, a Sr Novice class, Its been here 3 years, honestly, hasn't pulled to many entries. one of our lowest.
4, we have set some of the rules here already, jr classes Animals, cans and Yami pipe can follow either of WKA's bodywork rules, or use done if they choose, Tires, no choices, you run YDS

Now don't take that wrong, this is a great idea, Badger just wrapped up its 49th year, we do, and always have focused on getting people into karting. Our low cost classes are very strong, especially for kids.. I know of several sprint tracks that have for the most part, focused on the higher end classes, their the ones that need to look at this.
Consider this, Badger is still the biggest track in Wi, our numbers even over the last several years are good, usually a good race is 150, I think our best this season drew 197.. Over the last 10 years, two new sprint tracks have opened, but their numbers have not been strong. In that same period of time, 6 oval tracks have opened, with a new one coming near Milwaukee next season. Even the smallest pulls 50 entries a night.. Here were losing Sprint or prospective sprint people to ovals quickly. The reason ovals are so big compared to sprint is the structure is cheap and easy. one basic engine with different progressively faster classes. New chassis $1500-$2500, and at these tracks a relatively hard spec tire
To back up what I'm saying At the track we now know as USAIR in Shawno there used to be a small 1/2 mile Sprint track, small, old track, but when we raced there, they drew 85 entries. The group that now races at the Briggs motorplex, came from what was the Karting Kettle from up the road, They used to be so crowded they need two nights a week to get their classes in. Now many of those people went to ovals, some are our customers.
This isn't a which is better deal, simply that the oval market has seen the need to keep things cheap and easy, and that has really made them grow. We need to learn from that.
_________________
Bob Vehring
www.4cyclecentral.com

[Rick Crist]