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David Cole
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Joined: 18 Jul 2001
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Location: United States, Michigan, Comstock Park
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 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: June 2008 Commentary Discussion |
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Hello EKN viewers,
A new EKN Commentary from David Cole looks at money events, electronic scoring, and officiating.
To view the article, click http://www.ekartingnews.com/news_info.php?n=10331
To discuss the issue, please post below and remember to follow the EKN Forum guidelines.
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Last edited by David Cole on Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2495
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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David,
I'm pretty much in agreement with you.
On the money race issue, I am also amazed how many "money" races have been canceled the last few years due to a lack of interest yet almost everyone says they want to race for money. Go figure.
Transponders, If you are on the track during an official event be it practice or whatever, the transponder should be on the kart and I have said for years that everyone should buy their own transponder. In the long run it is cheaper to own your own and that would leave the transponder issues in the hands of the racers. This would free up track officials to do some other important things like officiating.
Consistency in officiating is sorely needed, but the sport will have to stop relying on volunteer officials for this to ever happen. I agree with paying officials to do their job but this cost will have to be passed down to the racers so I'm sure there will be objections.
I'll be interested to hear some of the responses to your editorial.
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Greg Bell
Advertiser
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 271
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Dave
I understand all your points. What I feel the major problem is with most is lack of planning for the event or lack of protocol.
To address the sort coming of the money races, have any of these promoters looks at the regional or local turnout and divided that by 4 (four to a team) and after that do they still wonder were the racers are at? I am always ready to go to a money race but now that we are spending more money on fuel to get there then the purse will pay dose that make sense?
Our sport is in turmoil to many tracks to race now that larger more nicely prepared tracks are popping up, why not when a new track starts up and the old club in the area is now competing for racers they don’t join forces aren’t clubs non profit so why not use a nice track to hold your races bigger better (better racing) more entry’s, more entry’s more word of the mouth better..
Here in nor-cal we can race 50-70 at a club race and have some 45 minutes away another 50-70 karters racing the same day or weekend now if they join forces we have 150-180 racers doesn’t that make since, I have seen karting stagnate in the past 13 year mostly because all the “I have a better way and my way will bring in the racers because I’m pissed at said promoter or racetrack.”
Well all I’ve seen this do is weaken the local and regional market. If you have 1 racer and 6 tracks within said 1 hour will said one racer stay at the closest track or go to others for a different scenery I see to many track for the amount of racers in one area . We have to start merging facility’s to have less racing and more participation ,for me I cant go to a track with the support trailer to service 6 customers when another 10 customers are at different tracks the same weekend get the racing together and get the shops something to support every weekend at our local track when there were 150-180 entry’s LEM had 3 workers and a fully supplied trailer to support there racing customers now for 6 customer and 55 racers not counting kid karts I go out for tech support no parts then go to another track the following day. Were running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to chase the racer every weekend. Were making less money because of all the stubborn tracks wanting the same race weekend and not wanting to merge with other tracks/clubs to create a better racing with more entries.
Lets get the racing count up so were all having fun again. Sever times require severe measures to pull the karting community back together and it can happen if their clubs and tracks realize there is a crises and there needs to be change.
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Chris Wehrheim
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1196
Location: United States, Georgia, Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| The two money races are suffering because of timing. There is just too much going on right now. With both races being very hard on engines and almost no time to get them redone before the big races. The schedule was something like WKA Dousman, Iron Eagle, Iron Man, week off, Stars Shawano. It just comes down to money and scheduling. I was planning on doing either one of the races, but we just cant afford to get a total rebuild of the engine done...nor is there really much time. |
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2495
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to point out that the Iron Man 150 is not exactly suffering. While hopes have been that it would be bigger the fact is that around 50 entries (remember just one class) will be in attendance.
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Doug Welch
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2402
Location: United States, state of mind, Somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Every big money race I've seen fail, (and it's most of them) is because the big money is coming from entry fees. The money has to come from outside the sport, not inside.
It's simple. High entry fees, high costs to get there, high costs for equipment and tires, minimal chance of winning. For example, $5,000+ (travel, time off work, tires, fuel, equipment, entry fees) up front costs with 1in 30 chance of winning $5,000. I can get better odds at a black jack table in Vegas.
You want a big money race to work? Promote the crap out of it to people outside the sport. Get the purse from outside the sport. Pay us travel money to get there and have free entry and tires. For the promoter who can figure out how to pull this off, it would be huge.
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Jim Conlin
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 465
Location: United States, Ohio, Hilliard
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I must be racing on a different planet. Or at least a different part of the grid. 
As far as I'm concerned "money races" do only two things: Bring in the top level racers who have a chance to win that money and get the attention of the media. To the club/regional racer that fills out those money race fields, any sort of cash rewards are a bonus, a jackpot, nothing more. We're there because we have something to prove and enjoy the process of proving it.
We've raced with Great Lakes SKUSA Pro Tour a couple years. Great series, huge fun. Our drivers podiumed a few times. The cash awards gave a warm fuzzy, but it wasn't enough to buy the crew lunch. We've run the RoboPong the last three years. The purse was never a factor in deciding to go or how we prepared for that race. For our team to find themselves in the top 3 posiitons at the end of the race was such a longshot that it would have been ridiculous to count on it as a means to justify the amount of time and money in prep and planning. In '06 our overall goal was to finish in the top ten but that had nothing to do with money and everything to do with proving what we could do as a team. We fell a little short, finished 16th (of 56) and got our entry fee back (11-20 paid $300). Warm fuzzy. But we all still look back on that accomplishment fondly and with pride.
I don't mean to sound ungrateful to Terry Riggins or Mark Dismore or anyone else wrangling prize money out of sponsors. Its just that except for a very select few anyone that says they wish the could race for money is just complaining about the cost of racing in a different way.
I'm really sorry to hear about the low turn out for the Iron Eagle. I've stood on a very tall soapbox right here on these forums for several years proclaiming the virtue of a sprint endurance series and the disappointing turn out for the Iron Eagle along with failure of the 2 enduance races in Florida make that unlikely to go anywhere.
The folks at Shawno promoted it great. The banner ads here have kept it in our faces and in fact we nearly signed up back at the KMI show (we didn't because we were waiting to find out what TAGUSA was going to do with the Rok but that's a whole different thread - don't get me started). We were really close to pulling together a team several times. But as I did the $4.00/gallon math to pull from Columbus, Ohio to Green Bay and back I couldn't come up with enough other races to drop from our budget to do it.
I'm as sorry as I can be but I think a very, very good event was planned at exactly the wrong time. That's all. Please try this event again after we all get used to the price of fuel. |
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Rick Crist
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 3281
Location: United States, Indiana,
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| David Cole wrote: | | First off, I’d like to know what exactly are you going to the track for? Is it just the racing itself, the friends you meet, or the prizes? |
The racing and the friends. Because if your in racing for the prizes or a cash purse … your in the wrong damn sport 
<edited the eye bleeding part  >
Last edited by Rick Crist on Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2495
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Ricky,
You are making my eyes bleed.
HUH?
Sorry we didn't get to talk for long when you and KF stopped by my trailer @ NCMP.
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Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
NKN Columnist & Host "Karting News Live"
I AM INDY!!
"When in doubt, gas it. It won't help but it ends the suspense." |
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David Cole
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 8590
Location: United States, Michigan, Comstock Park
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have said for years that everyone should buy their own transponder. In the long run it is cheaper to own your own and that would leave the transponder issues in the hands of the racers. |
Exactly Greg.
| Quote: | | Here in nor-cal we can race 50-70 at a club race and have some 45 minutes away another 50-70 karters racing the same day or weekend now if they join forces we have 150-180 racers doesn’t that make since |
Greg, I agree 100% with you. I would rather see events that have over 100 racers at the club level than split in half. But like you said, when there are different facilities within driving distance to your customers, it's hard to pick the right one to support.
Just recently, there were two road racing events on the same weekend, separated by just 300 miles. Obviously the better facility and more prestigous event won over the entries but left the other event, which on any other weekend would be a promising event, barely breaking even.
Now, my opinion on money racing as a racer, I don't care. Like Conlin mentioned, a little kick back is great but I would rather be racing the best than a few. When picking and choicing to run an event or even a class for that matter, I want to race with and against the best out there. I ran Yamaha to begin karting because that's where the top guys were. I tried shifter because that's where the top guys went to. And now I'm making the journey into TaG...take a guess why.
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Rick Crist
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 3281
Location: United States, Indiana,
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Wright wrote: | Ricky,
You are making my eyes bleed.
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You know what Greg, you’re 100% correct … and honestly, very few ‘get it’ in the first place, and it still puzzles me why I even try, but oh’well. Therefore I removed the eye bleeding text part of my posting, and I’m replacing it with something more helpful in the quest to kind kartings next big out-side sponsor.
| Doug Welch wrote: | | The money has to come from outside the sport, not inside. |
| Doug Welch wrote: | | Promote the crap out of it to people outside the sport. Get the purse from outside the sport. |
Maybe someone in karting could procure the services of company that sold Bud Light on the idea of sponsoring last weeks USARPS Championship in Vegas. For those that don’t know what the RPS stands for in USARPS, it’s Rock - Paper - Scissors. Yep, that’s right, the kids game Rock - Paper - Scissors. The winner, Sean “Wicked Fingers” Sears of Chicopee Massachusetts beat Julie “Bulldog” Crossley of Anderson Indiana for the 2008 USARPS League Title, winning $50,000 in prize money, and a trip to Beijing China ! http://www.usarps.com/ And the RPS girls, Brande "Rock" Roderick, Nicole "Paper" Pulliam and Alejandra "Scissors" Gutierrez …… well, they make the best looking umbel girls look ugly. |
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David Cole
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 8590
Location: United States, Michigan, Comstock Park
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Rick Crist wrote: | | Maybe someone in karting could procure the services of company that sold Bud Light on the idea of sponsoring last weeks USARPS Championship in Vegas. For those that don’t know what the RPS stands for in USARPS, it’s Rock - Paper - Scissors. Yep, that’s right, the kids game Rock - Paper - Scissors. The winner, Sean “Wicked Fingers” Sears of Chicopee Massachusetts beat Julie “Bulldog” Crossley of Anderson Indiana for the 2008 USARPS League Title, winning $50,000 in prize money, and a trip to Beijing China ! http://www.usarps.com/ And the RPS girls, Brande "Rock" Roderick, Nicole "Paper" Pulliam and Alejandra "Scissors" Gutierrez …… well, they make the best looking umbel girls look ugly. |
Bud Light or any alcohol or tobacco company can not be linked to a sport that involves participants under 18, from what I remember. Wasn't that the major issues as to why a Stars event could not run at the same venue as an IRL event, because of the event's sponsorship that include either alcohol or tobacco? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
And to continue the big money races, Stars events are actually big money races with the amount of product and cash they hand out through the year. I don't have exact numbers but it's a hefty amount throughout the year.
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Rick Crist
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 3281
Location: United States, Indiana,
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| David Cole wrote: | | Bud Light or any alcohol or tobacco company can not be linked to a sport that involves participants under 18, from what I remember. |
Not necessarily so - and how it works I’m not real sure of. One of http://www.powri.com/ sponsors is Budweiser. And as of last year, the under 18 level of participation was one of the strong points of the POWRi series as long as the under 18 participant provided the normal insurance requirements of a B/C or DL, a signed guardian release form or is emancipated. Note the first rule on this page -
http://www.powri.com/ClientFiles/Images/Files/2008%20600cc%20Outlaw%20Micro%20Rules[1].pdf - As well, most short tracks in the USA have some type of ‘Big Beer’ sponsorship involvement, with plenty of youth racers in the entry level classes.
Yet, and I’m just thinking out loud here, using alcohol or tobacco companies as an example. As well as factoring in the under 18 restrictions, whatever they may be. <If I’m interpreting what Doug is saying correctly, he’s talking about a special type karting event, and that being more than likely in the form of some kind of a ‘one-off’ deal.> So in the tone of the above - Why must karting at the special event “Pay Me” level that Doug is suggesting, put limitations on itself, include everyone, thus being all things to all people … when in reality, if one wanted, the event could just be an 18 and over participation event, said and done. While the word ‘limitations‘, and the way I used it might sound contradictory … think about it for a minute. Is the “Pay Me” level that Doug is suggesting going to be, or should be, kids, or adults ? If one had to give a logical answer, one would logically fathom it’s adults, thus why does karting still try to be all things to all people. Hence, the “being all things to all people” line of thinking is ass backwards in comparative to the way other forms of the sport work in reality. Said another weird way - If you and your kid have aspirations of him/her becoming an ALMS and Grand Am driver, locally racing karts, then racing karts via WKA, PKC or STARS, and then Skip Barber like trade tooling are the logical routes to go, not QM’s and sprint cars. Just the same, if you and your kid have aspirations of him/her becoming a ATBC driver, your going the route of LTO karts, micro’s, sprint cars, and maybe some asphalt late model or modified racing mixed in, being the logical routes to go, not STARS, and Skip Barber. Neither one of the examples given are “all things to all people” … and both have end result destinations.
Looking at the much broader picture of karting from afar, including everyone, and being all things to all people, limits or restricts kartings end result destinations, as well as skewing it’s motives and objectives. And if one thinks for a NY minute that kids under 18 should be on the “Pay Me” plan, seriously, we need to rethink kartings motives and objectives. IMO, club level karting, WKA, PKC and STARS is a sufficient enough way to promote kartings youth. And if it’s not a sufficient enough way to promote kartings youth, I’m not the guy you should be talking to. As well, if you or your child think he/she is better than the given competition in those specific series, you really need to be moving up, PROgressing, to some form of car racing, whatever that might be. Heck, the Budweiser sponsored POWRi series will take you at just 12 years old if your that good. Generally speaking, 1.) sprint and RR racing based karting tries to encompass everyone, “being all things to all people” and 2.) when you add in the “Pay Me” level that Doug is suggesting …… combining both does nothing more than put limitations and restrictions on end result, goals, objectives, and kartings own destinations. Honestly, IMHO, putting those limitations on karting itself is one of kartings biggest weaknesses.
<and Greg, sorry for the bleeding eye rant, again David did address my posting, so it’s his fault > |
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
NKN Columnist & Host "Karting News Live"
I AM INDY!!
"When in doubt, gas it. It won't help but it ends the suspense." |
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David Cole
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 8590
Location: United States, Michigan, Comstock Park
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, I was informed that Stars could not run at the same facility as an IRL event because of insurance, not sponsorship.
Which brings up a topic I have no knowledge of, why would that be the case? I watched the recent Star Mazda event at Watkins Glen on Speed and a few drivers were not allowed to compete because they are under 18. If that's the case, how are drivers at age 14 able to run Skip Barber???
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