Rotax Certified does it mean anything????

[don johnson]

What does Rotax Certified Shop mean? What does a shop have to do besides pay a fee to become Rotax Certified?

Here’s the history of Cody’s Rotax Jr rebuild.

Motor just about one year old, 40 hours on it.

Wanted it rebuilt for Rotax East Regional.

Chose a local Florida Certified Rotax shop for the rebuild, cost $770.00.

Got the motor back a couple days before the regional race.

Went to break it in as per Rotax owners manual within three laps of first break in Cody brings it in saying it vibrates so bad he can’t drive it. Contact the Rotax Certified shop that did the rebuild. They look at it and tell us it’s the chassis not the motor as it’s got a small crack in one of the bearing holders. (very, very, very, very small) Fine I put the motor on Cody’s brand new chassis take it back to the track and with one of the certified Rotax shop employee’s standing there start the motor. It runs for about one minute and goes POP and stops running. They finally admit it’s the motor and we take the motor off, pull the side case off all the plastic gears are shot the counter balance shaft bearing came apart taking all the plastic gears with it. They are replaced, Cody takes the kart out to again try and break the motor in not long after the nut that holds the flywheel tight backs off kart will not move. They tighten the nut. This goes on three times the nut loosens, kart won’t move they tighten the nut. The 4 th time this happens is during qualifying for the East Regional on lap 1, Cody needless to say qualifies on his home track in last place.

This time they have SSC East install the nut and install a new clutch as the last time it spun free it burned the back of the clutch off. Very nice of them to pay for this unfortunately nothing can give Cody back a chance to qualify well for the regional on his home track.

Having had enough of the newly rebuilt motor and not wanting to chance ruining the rest of the regional I put Cody’s practice motor on for the race.

Two weeks later I put the rebuilt motor on Cody’s kart for a local race to run it for the first time sense SSC East worked on it. Half way thru heat one it starts vibrating once again, we pull it go to the practice motor, plastic gears again are torn up.

Thinking it was the fault of the first Rotax Certified shop I send the motor to another Rotax certified shop here in Florida. It’s rebuilt once again $800.00 this time.
* The first shop did offer to send it to SSC East to have it fixed, I need a local Rotax certified shop here in Florida I can trust with Cody’s Rotax motors so I opted to keep it here in Florida even though I would have to pay for it myself, stupid me.

Everything is fine until yesterday during practice for a local race it starts vibrating once again, motor has maybe 4 hours on it after being rebuilt two times by two different Rotax certified shops ($1570.00) . I pull the side case and sure enough the gears are torn up again.

I’m now told the crank is most likely bent and needs to be replaced along with the bearings and plastic gears.

I respect and like both shops that where involved in this but I’m now $1570.00 into this motor rebuild and it all needs to be all redone again. I could have bought a new motor for what this is going to end up costing. I’m at a loss here for what to do I thought Rotax certified shop had some meaning behind it other than they paid a fee to advertise as such. You take it to a certified shop because the motor manufacture or their rep certified the shop knows what they where doing when they work on your motor.

I have had KT100’s and HPV’s rebuilt and never had any where near these problems what’s up with Rotax motors?

(and yes we checked to ensure there was oil in the motor)
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[Nick Weil]

Don,

I totally sympathize with you and Cody about your past couple months. But taking your frustrations out here is probably not going to achieve much. And, the other issue that you are not really making a big deal out of... The ORIGINAL Service center DID offer to send your motor to SSC East at little or no cost to you. I don't see why you did not let that happen. If that were the case, you would only be $770 in to this thing.

I feel I should say that SpeedQuest has not been involved with the motor repairs you have had done. But, I have from time to time offered some advice as you approached me with the story.

The bent crank theory sounds plausible for the following reasons:

1. It would certainly cause the vibration that you have been experiencing.
2. When the nut that held the flywheel kept getting loose while running, that was not helping. Usually that can 'gall' the crank surface, and only make the flywheel nut even more likely to come off in the future.

But then again, the bent crank theory doesn't seem to work for the following reasons:

1. How did it make it almost (4) hours till this weekend before it started vibrating again? Perhaps the crank has moved within it's journals?
2. During all of this, has anyone replaced the balance shaft in the motor? I would guess not based on the prices you quoted.

In answer to your question about certification:
To become Rotax Certified a Rotax Dealer has to meet a few requirements. They have to have a clean facility where the work can be done, they have to attend a Training Session, and they have to sign a contract stating that they will not deviate from the Rotax Specifications when building and servicing motors. It's not the smoke and mirrors that some would make it out to be.
_________________
Nick Weil
Authorized Rotax Service Center and Dealer since 2002
2004 Team USA Rotax Worlds Finals DD-2 Driver

Want to save money AND grow the economy? www.fairtax.org

[don johnson]

Nick

Thanks for your reply it’s not my intention to bad mouth any shop here but to question the system in place that certifies shops as I believe my post states. If that was not clear it should be now. I did not, will not post the names of the shops involved as it may not be their fault totally. The nut backing off is a common Rotax motor problem it seems or so I have been told sense this all started.

I’m not a motor expert Nick I have no idea if it’s the crank or not that’s why I took it to a Certified Rotax shop they are supposed to be the experts. I have spoken to Mr Davies personally at the Regional about this motor and the problems, I have PM’ed F1 I did not post without seeking answers, solutions else where first.

My decision to keep the motor in Florida was based on the fact I need someone here where we race to work on these motors not someone in Boston.

Only $770.00 into this theory is fine Nick but there are some things money can not buy like a chance at qualifying again. Money I can always make more of, that chance at qualifying I can not give Cody back. This did not only happen to me but to at least two other parents that week end. How many sets of plastic gears have you been selling over the last couple months Nick?

My intention is to call into question what Certified Rotax shops have to go thru to become Certified. A clean shop and attend a training session thank you for answering the question. Is there any follow up to the training session? Is the present method of Certifying shops what it should be, should more be done?

I now know a lot more about having a Rotax motor rebuilt I do not want other parents and their young racers to have to learn the way I did. We now all know what it takes to become a Certified Rotax shop, a clean shop and a training session.

No Speedquest did not rebuild the motor.

Both shops that did have been willing to help out I’m not faulting that I’m not seeking to defame those shops, I’m simply questioning the system in place that let it happen to begin with.
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[Cole Peterson]

Hi Don,

It's terrible to hear about what happened to Cody during the regionals; no doubt it was something that should never have happened. As we have all seen from the incident involving CMW in July, the Rotax program is far from perfect. It is in my own opinion, that the certification process is sort of a joke. Any unskilled mechanic could technically become a certified rotax dealer and service center. Not naming any names, but some dealers should not even be dealers. Nick and I have discussed this once before. Right Nick I made the mistake myself not to bring my motor to Speedquest when I had the chance. I am with Don on this one. Am I wrong by thinking if I bring a motor to a dealer that they are to go through the entire thing and check wear on parts and the block, even if it is a top end rebuild? If I bring my motor in for servicing after 40 or so hours, isn't the dealer to inspect everything? After two dealers went through the motor, shouldn't one of them have caught the problem??

I know you have an opinion Nick, because I know Speedquest does go through their motors well. That's why there is a waiting list to have motors rebuilt. So, am I wrong in this thinking?
_________________
Cole Peterson
aka: 'Coyote'

Rotax Senior #40
100cc IAME #24
Dirt Track ALL STAR

[don johnson]

HI Cole

Poor Nick he happened to be there when I was having trouble this weekend with the motor so he got to hear the worst of it, it was not his problem but he always offered his help as has Donald at Advanced Karting, Matt at OGP and others.

I don't want to point fingers, bad mouth anyone, any shop, I'm just questioning weather the system could be better than it presently is. I don't want anyone to go thru what we have been thru with this motor, I know others that have.

Cody can now change motors on his kart at recording breaking speed and thats not a bad thing if he's going to race it he has to understand how it works and be able to work on it.

If you where at OGP this past weekend you saw the Rotax program at it's best six MiniMax kids bumper to bumper lap after lap racing their hearts out. It was great to fun to watch and the kids where loving it.

Having PM'ed back and forth with Marshall and Mr Davies sense my first post I'm sure the motor will be taken care of.

I don't think just anyone unskilled could become certified they do go thru training in Boston I would expect that would weed them out. It's just a matter of taking the time to do the job correctly the first time. Like Joey said you can have McDonalds or a Chef do your motor. It would be nice to think all Certified Shops took the Chef approach and there was a bit more oversite by the powers that be.

To defend the second shop he was just doing what he could to correct the McDonald approach of the first shop.

Tell your dad I said hello Cole and come race with us soon.
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[Cole Peterson]

Yeah... I can see your point about them weeding someone out in Boston when they go to get certified.

I think we'll be racing some races here soon. I've been working alot since my promotion to management, so time is hard to get off. However, since the busy season is coming, we have hired more people, so it should be easier for me to take off. I work friday thru monday, and am in college on tuesday and thursday, along with an online course I try to get done on wendnesday. Emerald just started high school, so she has been working hard to keep her grades up.

I just bought an suv of my own, so I can pull the kart trailer. I don't think my mustang would, even though it has the power So, when I find some time, I'll be up for some practice. Moroso will be the first race we go back to, probably the race on 11/12, because Emerald's easykart is having some issues, and advanced karting has all the right people to fix it. Plus, EMerald has never been there before and I like that facility alot. All in good time, Don. I've been saving up all my money for my big trip to Alaska over the summer. So, I've been trying to watch my budget. Everyone knows you can't have a budget in racing if you want to do well.

We'll be up to Ocala before the year is out. Just have to get the time off.
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Cole Peterson
aka: 'Coyote'

Rotax Senior #40
100cc IAME #24
Dirt Track ALL STAR

[don johnson]

We will be at Moroso the 12th for that race hope to see you there.

There is what I think might be a very easy solution and will make being a Rotax Certified shop mean more and give all the shops incentive to perform like Chef’s. With every seal SSC issues to the shops (to reseal motors) would go a customer feed back card. After break in or 10 hours whatever the customer would fill out the card send it to SSC stating how satisfied they where with the service they received, how the motor runs, etc. It would give those few shops that don’t perform like Chef’s all the time maybe a little more incentive to do so. I would think something along these lines could be put together without to much hassle. No smoke and mirrors marketing technique but a program that Rotax can advertise and use to help boost consumer confidence that yes the Rotax motor package is the right way to go. That when you see a shop is certified it does carry some weight and there is a going program clearly visible to everyone to insure all Certified Shops adhere to the standards of Joey’s Chef. Rate the shops based on the returned cards once a year, give the customer some small incentive to return the card to SSC a program like this could be shaped in many different fashions for nothing more than a few hours time designing the card and couple hundred dollars printing cost.
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[Thom Andresen]

That certainly is a good idea Don, especially since it could be utilized to reward good work too.
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I spend my money on hunting, racing, women, and whiskey - the rest I waste.

[Matt Anderson]

Forgive me, but its time for me to dispense with all formalities. As Director of "Original" Kart shop, I personally know what steps were taken and offered to correct any problem with said motor. These steps were full, competent and above-and-beyond what most service centers would do. Did we ever stop and consider...its just a bad motor.....period. Hence the Lemon Law in most states for vehicles....some just come out bad.
As to the comparison of this company to McDonalds vs. others being "of chef quality?" - I'd rather not post what my initial reply was on this public forum. I think our professionalism and progress as a company and a platform for ROTAX to grow, speaks for itself.

Sincerely,

Matt Anderson
Director of Operations
"original kart shop" - Ocala Gran Prix

[Chuck McCue]

I would at a minimum a "service Center" should:

1. Business be located in a place zoned for a shop.
2. Have yellow page ads.
3. Maintain regular store hours.

Just for kicks punch in you fav. "service Center's" addres in google maps and zoom in with the Sat. view. Many look like a residential neighborhood.
_________________
Chuck McCue

[don johnson]

Thanks Matt

The actual intent of my post was to try and get the way ALL certified shops are viewed or at least some sort of rating system put in place. Right now there is nothing in place is there? Thus the title of my very first post.

OGP's name never came up that I'm aware of until you brought it up.
I would think as a cartified shop you would welcome a system that was clearly visiable to everyone to insure all shops performed to the standards set by SSC all the time on every motor.


The intent of my post, this thread is to try and bring about change for the better not to point fingers, bad mouth anyone, any shop as I have already stated several times. And I don't believe I have, nor do I want to see this thread, post sink to that.
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[Matthew Anderson]

Obviously, the more important note here, is that I agree with these ideas. I think that a rating system would be good, with random visits, walk-throughs and periodic testing of maintenance facilities and its mechanics even better. All, of course, according to ROTAX certification standards. This has been our intent all along since becoming a certified ROTAX center.

We welcome this course of thought and would gladly do our part to help make this happen.

-(But flipping burgers would still not be an option: McDonalds we are not.)

Sincerely,

Matt Anderson
Director of Operations
Ocala Gran Prix

[don johnson]

Great thanks for your support with this I think it's something thats workable, we'll see what comes of it.

I'm sure OGP would be rated high on all the customer returned cards because of your hard work there Matt, thank you.

It's about moving forward in a postive manner and trying to change things for the better we all have the same goal to strenght the Rotax program, to see it grow.
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[Cole Peterson]

Matt,

Although I have not been around there lately, it has been a year from when I first started racing. OGP a year ago was a small, local format racing facility. But in this one year's time, your efforts of putting forth a great Rotax format have been realized. Not only has OGP become a dealer and service center in this time, but you have also been the highlight of 2006 Rotax Eastern Grand Regional.
_________________
Cole Peterson
aka: 'Coyote'

Rotax Senior #40
100cc IAME #24
Dirt Track ALL STAR

[don johnson]

Chuck

I don’t think the location of the shop has much to do with the quality of work that comes out of that shop.

There’s a gas station down the street it’s a service center the title Certified Service Center implies a greater meaning I believe. That service center has gone thru special training to become certified. The title is used to install confidence in their customers that the service center knows what they are doing as they have received special training. As it is with certified Rotax service centers, seals are not just handed out to any kart shop they have gone through special training. There is a system in place to hold accountable Rotax Certified Shops that go beyond Rotax guide lines when rebuilding motors there is no system in place to hold shops accountable when they fall short of SSC or Rotax standards, guide lines. There is no reason a motor should come out of the Rotax certified shop running worse than when it went in the shop.



For those that are lost about the McDonalds, Chef wording it’s referring to Joey’s posts http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=43113&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
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