A SKUSA Seed Points System??

[Pete Van Ginkel]

Shooter (Are you the same Shooter that was in "Happy Gilmore"? ),
It sounds like a good system if there was a need for it. Why do the fastest S2 guys have to run slower than the slowest S1 guys?

[Rob Hogenmiller]

I think it is a neat concept and in theory a good idea, but doesn't work for real life because there are quite a few Fast/good guys/gals that don't run the whole series and would be booted back.

If everyone made all the races sounds like a good system. Seems like your on to something though. I definitely like the idea of guys being booted up.

The best way I think is for the regional director to step in and make the call. Normally there is a one year margin. Meaning that whatever class your in that year you won't get changed, but your regional director can change you for the next year and should.

It's about impossible for SKUSA to govern the licensing because they don't see drivers. The regional directors can help and you yourself as a driver have to decide where is the best place for yourself.

There might be guys that are slow in S1 that aren't as fast as S2 guys, but have lots of experience and feel safer racing against S1 guys. I know that happen a lot in motocross and I could certainly understand their desire to race in the next class up. There weren't a lot of guys who did this, but it did make sense.

[Brant Williams]

I have been thinking about going SKUSA racing after being out of it for about 2 years. It seems the Class/License structure makes no sense.

In 2000 at the Supernationals, I looked at S2 vs S1 and it looked like the top 1/3 of the S2 field and the bottom 1/3 of the S1 field should swap. There were lots of guys in S1 that had no business being there, and lots of guys in S2 that were better than at least half the S1 guys. The problem is there are not enough ways for S2 guys to move up. And no way for S1 guys who don't belong to get booted back to S2.

Now the SP Class seems like it is muddling everything up. Remember, the big SKUSA draw was that the local guy (good) guy could go race the big boys when they came to town, and the limited class format meant lots of track time and multi heat format. MORE RACING!

Now SKUSA is going the way of the IKF and WKA and adding all these classes to tailor to niche groups, thinking they have 70% of the racers now, so why not add a few classes and get 85% of them. Problem is they are going to lose the whole.

Seems to me there should be only (2) 125 Classes. The lower (S2) level 125 should use a small enough carb to keep them from overlapping the faster (S1) class as far as lap times go.

SKUSA should come up with a seed point system, similar to what is used in FIA/USSA in ski racing. At the end of every year the top (50) (just a guess) S2 guys get bumped to S1, and the bottom (50) S1 guys get sent back to the minors (S2)

Seed Points:
Basically the way a seed point system works is for each completed race event you are assigned a seed point result based on how far back, time wise you finish from the winner, and the quality of the field.

The seed point result is the sum of two components: One part is determined from a formula relating your total elapsed time, finish, or combo thereof relative to the winner. The farther back you are, the more points. The second part is usually an average of the current seed points of say the top 5 seeded entries in your race. Lower is better.

The formulae are a little more complicated than that, but they work. This is how World Cup Ski Racers are ranked. You current seed points are usually the average of the two best of your last five results. The way things are designed, the top guys will have points around zero.

Its a really cool system because you can have a local race, where a few really hot shoes show up and you have a chance to up your ranking (get a low point result).

It also reduces cherry picking because it means less to win a race with a bunch of hacks than to finish a close 6th against the best guys.

Finally, it creates a true national ranking system. Races like the Pro-Moto Tour get people together from various parts of the country, and point results become interlinked.

In Jr Ski racing it was always cool when national team guys would show up a a regional race. I remeber when 2 or 3 US Ski Team guys showed up for one of my firt regional DH's. There were close to 200 entries, and I stil had maximum points (1200 I think) so I started way back in the order. The top 5 seeded guys had a points average of about 35. I went balls out, nearly crashed, and finished 14th less than 1.5s off the winner...which was great considering I started 140th in a ruted course. My points went to 170!

I think it could really work. What do you guys think?

[Glenn Holland]

Just a friendly reminder to everyone that we require full, real names for registered name and screen name on the Ekartingnews Discussion Forums.

I have contacted this person regarding that, and we certainly appreciate the excellent post!

Thanks,

Glenn

[Brant Williams]

Rob H wrote:

"I think it is a neat concept and in theory a good idea, but doesn't work for real life because there are quite a few Fast/good guys/gals that don't run the whole series and would be booted back."

Rob...it can work in practice because you DON'T have to run a bunch of races.

Remember, your current seed points would usually be the best 2 seed points results in the last 12 months. If you are really fast, your could conceivagbly go to only two races. If you do well against strong fields you could keep your points low enough to insure staying in the top class. Then again if you really want to race S1 you will go to a lot of races trying to get better results....

As for S2 being slower...mayber your right...and there is no need. Heck maybe its better. Shows how screwed up things are when 1/3 the guys in S2 (which is supposed to be slower) would qualify solidly in the S1 field.

[Rob Hogenmiller]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brant Williams:

As for S2 being slower...mayber your right...and there is no need. Heck maybe its better. Shows how screwed up things are when 1/3 the guys in S2 (which is supposed to be slower) would qualify solidly in the S1 field.

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Hey Brant,

I don't I fully understand how it works. Are you saying that it just is based off your last two race results. Sorry it's just new to me and sure would like to understand it. As it sounds like it has promise/potential.

Shoot I've seen S3 times that would put them in them mid pack in the S1, so ya it's pretty goofy, no doubt there.

I've briefly overheard the mention that shifterkarts might require that you goto school to get your license. Will be interesting to see how that develops.

Peace Out

[Brant Williams]

Rob,

OK, this will be a little long...

Here's how it works. Lets say you go to a regional race in S2. You have done 8 (S2) races in the last year (last 52 weeks from todays date)

Assume the system lets you count your best two results in the last 12 months of competition for seeding/ranking purposes. Assume that for the (8) races that you did in the last year you have had seed point results of:

195.88
500.23
290.33
452.22
227.99
1000.00 (Terrible result or DNF or DQ)
275.84
250.67

What this means will become clear below...

The best two results would be 195.88 and 227.99 which give an average of 211.94....your current seed point ranking.

(FYI, at the same time the best drivers in the whole country that class will have points near zero. Awful drivers may have points near 1000, depending on how the point formulae are set up.)

Back to the race you are doing now:

Some of the top S2 guys from your region and others regions show up. Since this is motorsports, finishing counts, so at the end of the race your seed point result for this race would be based on your finish (race points), plus the average seed points of the five highest seed point finishers (field points).

So lets say there are some really good guys who come to your local race. Lets say 10 guys with seed points ranging from 25.50 to 150.00 show up, plus the rest of you.

At the end of the race, your seed point result would be the addition of two components....race points plus field points.

Field Points would be the average seed points of the top 5 seeded drivers who finish (not the top five finishers!) Lets say in this case, the top 5 seeded drivers who finish have an average current seed point rating of 67.50. This component of your seed point result is typically referred to as field points because it is representative of the strenth of the field.

The other part would be based on your result. These are your race points. Basically this is some math function that is created based on your placing, and the time behind the leader you are.

Lets say you do really well, and finish 3rd, less than 1.00s off the leader. Your race points might be pretty low....lets say 75.00.

So your seed point result for this race would be 142.50. So now your current seed point ranking will improve. Your best results for the last 12 months are 142.50 and 195.88. Your seed point ranking is now 169.19.

But lets say that 195.88 result was 11.5 months ago. In two weeks it will drop out of the results your ranking is based on. So your seed point ranking will rise to 185.24 because your best two

These types of systems have been very well refined over the years, mainly in Alpine Ski racing where elapsed time is used to calculate race points.

Systems like this are cool because they do the following:

1. Insure you keep racing to keep your ranking.
2. Eliminate cherry picking...to get your ranking up (points down) you must go race against fast drivers.
3. Provide a true national points/ranking system. When the FAST guys from your region go to a National Race and do well, they come home with low seed points. If you beat them, or do well against them, your points go down too.
4. Provide a performance criteria / ranking system which can be used (in addition to subjective criteria like race craft and driver safety, sportsmanship) to move drivers up (or down) in class.
5. There are other things you could do like assign a maximum point result if your are DQ'd for tech reasons and mandate that the DQ result must count towards your ranking!

Its just an idea. One of the problems karting has is designating who the top ranked drives are. With 50+ "National Championship" titles contested every year, it becomes a bit of a joke trying to promote your best drivers. (My Duffy is better than your Duffy!)

Having a crtieria by which a sanctioning body can promote its best drivers could prove valuable for karting, and for the drivers. Think about it.