what to soak new bearings in?

Jamie Webb · Joined: 30 Aug 2001 Posts: 584

Scott,
Can you tell me what bearing company engineers (companies, not individual engineers) told you NOT to use GREASE in your bearings?

I wonder.... do any "other" forms of racing NOT use grease in their bearings??
_________________
Jamie Webb
Call or email for Home, Auto, Life, or Health Insurance quote (Florida only).

Andrew Kidd · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject:

I use Viscotene in the bearings. Makes the axle roll oh-so-smooth. Wink

_________________
Cameron Karting - 707.938.9986 - www.cameronkarting.com
My opinions are not shared by any of the businesses I may represent.

Mike Goebel · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject:

Andrew Kidd · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject:

Peter Stolper · Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 130

You ARE all nuts,
Mike Goebel is absolutely right, the only way to fly is with a true sealed bearing. Being able to spin the axle on the stand before going on the track (after cleaning and lubing your bearings, grease, TRI-FLOW, WD40 or Urine) means nothing when after 2 or 3 laps you have picked up enough sand or grit in your races to prevent the axle from turning with moderate grunt pressure from you and a small dog (and what kind of friction does that depict) actually what kind of vision does that depict?
To hell with ceramic bearings or any other Voo-Doo (no offense), but for the last 2 years and approximately 80 hours of track time I and 2 other friends have run a heavy duty, high precision sealed bearing in our rear axle, we have never had to lube them or even look at them other than to wash the grit off the outside of the cassettes (at the end of the day). They still test out to be in perfect condition and I expect yet another season from them without much attention. Incidentally I run very competitively at or near the front of the pack, and bearings have never been a reason that I could honestly use for not making 1st. Last year I changed the front bearings to the same sealed type and when I bolted the wheel on the hub for the first time, the wheel actually started to turn on its own untill the heaviest part was at the bottom, I rotated the wheel back 180 degrees in disbelief and again it slowly rotated back 180 degrees. What kind of friction is that to intimidate anyone. Oh yes, the rear bearings (cross referenced against the standard average $35 kart bearing shielded or open) was $23, the front bearings were $18 (still going strong and spinning after 40 hours, before and after the race at least 20 rotations or until I stop counting).

Timken is a specialist manufacturer of Tapered bearings, try buying a Timken Ball race bearing from them, and then tell me about it (as i'm sure one of you will)!!!!!!

A small message from one who has not lubed his balls for two years, but then that is another story Razz

(no comments please BUTCH)!!!
_________________
Seatorque Control Systems LLC
E.T.M.Engineering

Chuck McCue · Joined: 17 Jul 2001 Posts: 2944

jim wirtz · Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 166

Peter,

are you going to tell us where you got these jewels
and do you have a part #?
_________________
Jim Wirtz

http://www.wirtzswoodworks.com/

Scott Woeckener · Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 33

PETER: Dirt kills all bearing races...However...FACT...Silicon Nitride {SN101C} Is the hardest man made precision product todate. Nasa uses it in all bearing projects..Even on the space shuttle. FACT...It doesn't Rust, Chip, Crack and resists heat up to 1800 degrees. We used to replace every other ball in a bearing with Silicon Nitride just clean up the races from the dirt, poc markes and micro welding. These bearings only take ONE DROP of oil and are good for the race day or longer. I'm sure maintenance is important to you. Custom frictionless seals or shield is what you really are looking for on dirt. What if you could replace your current cage/retainer with a High Temp NYLON retainer that is frictionless and is selflubricating? What if you could use a grade 5 ball verses your standard grade 50? What if you could have all the balls at the exact same size and shape without the (+/-) of mass product. (Over or Under sized) No longer having hi spots or clicking.
What if you could have a "Specific" ball made for that exact raceway of that specific bearing? What if you could ask for a custom made bearing with 8 or 7 or 6 or 5 or even 3 ball bearing instead of the standard 9 ball for your engine? What if you could only buy ONE set of bearings that would last you a life time and could be passed down to the next racer? The only wear would be the races themselves. Just have them installed into NEW bearing races cheap. There is a difference between racing for fun and racing to win. What level of racing you end up at starts with the simplest of FACTS. Get rid of the variable of friction and everything else will fall into place. Maintenance is the next hill to over come. Inspect what you expect!! How you clean and what you clean them with is Huge!
Thanks, Scott
www.northstar-ceramicbearings.com

Colin Jackson · Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 88 Location: Australia,

Scott wrote: "What if.... What if.... What if..."

What if your engine is 0.1% less powerful than the guy in front of you? The difference between a $5 bearing and a $50 bearing isn't going to help you...

What if the tyre importer left your batch in the sun for 20 minutes longer than the batch on the kart in front of you? The difference between a $5 bearing and a $50 bearing isn't going to help you...

I understand the desire to have a kart where everything turns freely, because it feels good to have it that way, but I have personally tested bearings which have been soaked and lubed with very thin lubricant, against bearings that are packed with grease like the average New York subway platform and couldn't find a 10th of a second difference...

So really, other than making us feel prepared, what does having squillion dollar bearings really do for us?

Mike Goebel · Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:44 am Post subject:

Rodney Ebersole · Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:39 am Post subject:

WHAT!!!! They are having Go-Kart races on the Space Shuttle?? Dang-it, I didn't get a flyer about it. When's the next race?

"frictionless?" Is that anything like "World Peace"?
_________________
Rodney Ebersole

Scott Woeckener · Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 33

Gentlemen: Technology is a good thing! Use it or not is your choice. Remember: Karting is just a spring board to higher levels of racing. It is NOT the final product. Our bearings are used by most major race teams worldwide...from karting to snowmobiling to Junior Dragster to Quarter Midgets. We just talked to another builder of Junior Dragster motors of which sells for over $14,000 each. Never tried our bearings. Bought a set...Dyno'd then ordered 40 sets.
40mm bearings...cost of standard grade 50 Industrial bearing..$35-50 depending were you buy it. Each Silicon Nitride ball COSTS between $12-18 depending on the market conditions. The Custom Retainer COST approx. $35.00 not to say the cost of the Custom TEFlon FRictionless Shield. 50mm and 40mm...We can't keep them instock. For those who haven't raced against those that have them...be thankful. The others cry foul in the line for teching. It's like telling me there is no difference in performance between a valve striaght up and down verses one at 3-5 degrees. With the right machined valve guide you can't see the difference in tech. As far as the grease in the bearings. It acts as a cooling agent, lubrictation agent and a dirt magnet. As the whole bearing expands...How much room is there actually for the grease? {Syrup vs. one drop of synthetic oil} Something has to give or the bearing balls have to SKID around the raceways. This is called friction/DRAG. Now...Heat your SEALED Industrial bearing up to let's say 100-150 degrees. {A good 10 hard laps} Now tell me how FREE SPINNING they are. Watch your lap times and how far you drop lap by lap. Curious...Why do the new rear differentials in trucks and Vans ONLY use synthetic verses the old 80/90 weight? Ford, GM and Chrysler all agree that it can save you gas mileage with less friction and wear and tear. Funny how those mock those {NASA, ect..}that researched and shared case studies of the success and failure of all types of bearings for FREE. Yet those cannot afford a $150.00 set of engine bearings towards a race advantage for which states "It's not within the budget" to win but painting a helmet for $450.00 is???
Have it be Old school or New school. There will always be those who are lazy and refuse to learn. It's easier to complain than think I guess.
It will all come around full circle.
Thanks, Scott
www.northstar-ceramicbearings.com

Tom Jensen · Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject:

Scott,
Send me a set and I'll test them for you absolutely free. Karting is the end for me. If there is a ladder system for me, it's a ladder out of a hole and not one to the top. Laughing

_________________
Sex is like pizza. When it's good it's great and when it's bad, it's still pretty good.

Rick Blood · Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject:

The original question was about 40mm rear axle bearings.
With the extreme conditions imposed on these bearings, I doubt that any of the static test results apply. I am very skeptical of any on track improvements since I doubt that there was much of a scientific approach involved in the process. There are just too many factors that can affect session to session results and it's compounded by the length of time it takes to swap out bearings. Since the driver is by far the biggest variable, he could change the outcome of a tenth or two simply with a change in attitude. If someone has some concrete test results, please bring it here and bring the method of testing with you.
Another factor is that these bearings are not spinning at some outrageous RPM. We are talking about under 2000. I've never experienced any noticable temp rise from rear bearings under any conditions.
I would agree that grease creates more drag IF it was completely surrounding the balls with no chance of air entering the area. Fact is that the grease is pushed out of the way and stacks up away from the balls. What's left after a few revolutions is a thin layer of lube and not a wall of unforgiving grease.
The typical kart axle bearing is very loose and that's the way I want mine. They experience more than just a rotational movement. They get pounded, twisted, flexed and spun while being subjected to side loads and straight line loads. If using a high tech oil makes a person feel better then that's what they should use.

As far as engine bearings go (make that 2 stroke), my experience has been that ceramics didn't do anything for me, performance wise, and I removed them after one race because they didn't look good. In a Briggs motor maybe they could help.

Scott, I admire your dedication and you are right about ceramics in so many areas but I have my doubts about the benefits in a karting application. Maybe someone could list the engine builders that use them.

One last point. For the vast majority, karting is a sport unto its self and not somebodies ladder to stardom.
_________________
Rick Blood
www.flowdata.net