To Maxsym-ize or not?

Riley Will · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject:

Charlie, $18,500.00 CDN complete.

And for those who need this in USD, check the internet daily as your currency is bobbing up and down faster than Charlie with a bar lined up with shooters Very Happy

Cylinder price is $1800.00 CDN each. These do not require any other porting to be run either.
_________________
Riley Will
BRC Engineering
rwill@brceng.com
(403) 216-0630 wk.
www.brceng.com

Charlie Tackett · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject:

SO, that's what, about $500 USD, eh, RIley??? Laughing

Gary Kozuma · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject:

Hey guys,

So those of you who know me know I don't race 250's... yet. I do however have a bit of exposure to what goes on and I do pay attention. The primary reasons I haven't put together a 250 effort has to do with failures and cost. There's nothing worse than having a mechanical breakdown. One of the key drivers of costs are bad decisions made by organizing bodies. Decisions like allowing unlimited compression (girdle anyone?), modifications to stock motors which are excellent stock (CRF450), and any other decision that allows new motor packages to obsolete the existing ones (ICC yuk). So my view would be allowing a new motor that has a performance advantage over existing motors is a mistake and will drive people out of racing, forever.

However, a new motor package that does not have a performance advantage could potentially offer something that IS needed. It could be cost, reliability, availability, conformity, etc. So what to do about the MaxSyn motor? I see there's a carbureted version and a 450 version in the works. Add a rev limiter and spend a year evaluating the motor on track relative to the existing motor packages. Your guess is as good as mine if it would be on par, a bit faster or a bit slower. It for sure would be a bit different.

And by all means, do NOT allow any modifications and setup a claiming rule. Oh yea, as hard as it may be you can only allow one new motor in. As soon as you do it based on "spec" the door is open to the Italian Job, if you know what I mean. I'm not saying forever, but for sure the first 3 years.

Gary "Interested by stander" K. Rolling Eyes

FIROUZ HAGHIGHI · Joined: 31 Jan 2002 Posts: 402

hello everyone

what are we trying to fix? do we have problem? are we not spending enough money to race? are we not having fun?.

what is bring the 4 strocks into the program is going to solve. NOTHING.

i will assure you they will explode ( per DARCY) just as well as the 2 strocks and as we all know is will be just matter of time just keep up the RPM.

after the laguna 04 we all have a new start. thanks to JR O we need to stay with the rule that are set for 05 seasson and not try to fix something that is not broken. as we all know the far future of karting is in 4 strocks. but not now. timing of starting something (500/4 twin) is bad. we need to put on (500/4) back far backburner. we all have lots of $$$$ in our engines for better or worse. i for one will not spend $15k to 20K on a new engine package to go racing. we need to run what we have until time that there is no other option but 500/4 twins. the new $$$$$ spending idea's will drive a lot of racers (250 racers) out including me. last year i purchased a used tz for $2500.00 and it is running great i just give it a lot of fule. you can also purchase a new cr 250 for $2500 of a rotax. so why are we trying to raise the bar up all the time. don't fix it until it is broken.

the single 4 strocks are great idea but they are also under development. i hate for some engine builder to use my money and experement on my engine. so we need to set back lat let the engine development take place ( by the factory with lots of $$$$ of some engine builder with lots of dyne time and $$$) to get the single 4 strock up to par.
with out restriction and regulation any organization will fall a part.

rob, i am with you lets keep the new development on the back burnner and see what happens in future.

if look at skusa we'll all can see that allowing the pi systems and the ICC ENGINES has been a wrong move. icc engine have not been what they tought. and now most org. looking into a stock format for engines.

the rules are set for 2005 so lets go race and have fun with what we have.

very best wishes to all

firouz #99

team texas

sorry for misspelling when i get going i get going.

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject:

Charlie, dead on the money!!! I have been racing my 450 for the last season and 1/2, and since I put a Falicon crank and rod in mine, it's stayed in one piece, no failures, original valves, head and guides, only piston and rings. Not to mention last time it was out, I set the track record for a 250 single at Barber, so it aint slow either.
Riley, very good spirit, I'm very impressed with your attitude, it shows lots of class. The venue for these motors was cut short when the FIM pulled the 250GP 4-stroke plan. If there was a venue for these motors now, the supply would increase and prices would come down.
Ferouz, I hope that you're not that naive that you think engine builders aren't experiment with your money, they are!!!
I could build any motor to go into my 250, I chose the 450 for reliability and the fact that it has a much needed counter balancer.
Bottom line is, I think we're trying to progressive here in the US and in doing so; we're setting an example for the world. I don't think the Maxsym will be any more expensive to race then any other fast motor, unless it's a grenade. If so, problem solved..

Chris R.

Randy Domikis · Joined: 22 Jul 2002 Posts: 266

Oh yeah.....

Here is my new SUPER FE MOTOR! Think I can get it approved?

[http://www.sea-doo.net/units/2003/GTX4tecsuper/Images/Rotax%20Engine%20Front.jpg]

Randy Domikis

[/img]

Riley Will · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject:

Randy, I hope you are a "little guy" Shocked

_________________
Riley Will
BRC Engineering
rwill@brceng.com
(403) 216-0630 wk.
www.brceng.com

Andy Kiker · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:03 am Post subject:

My opinion is the 4 stroke should at least be limited to 450. I have run aganist them and likes been said before the low and midrange power of them is very impressive. allowing them to go to 500 is just going to increase the low end and midrange. I think most of the 4 stokes out there are 450 anyway because I think that has been the limit in karting up untill now.( I am sure someone will let me know. )There development is happening very rapidly and I would not want the 2 strokes to become obsolete. at least not in the near future. Parts for them are going to be very expensive and yes 2 stroke parts are also, but there is a lot of moving parts in a 4 stroke that are going to be made out of alot of exotic material to try and save weight and rotating mase and gain performance. When someone spends the time and money to get all that worked out and reliable, look out.

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject:

Andy, what exotic materials are you talking about beside Titanium valves?
We can argue this all day but 4 strokes are no more expensive if not less expensive to maintain than a 2 stroke. 2 strokes will be obsolete in the near future that is a fact.
Lets stop the un-educated 4 stroke bashing, it's getting old.
There's more parts in a 4 cycles, but they are better lubricated and they take 1/2 the abuse of a 2 cycle. Think about, CR250 @ 10,000 rpm has the sledge hammer hit the top of the piston 10,000 a minute. A CRF450 @ 10,000 rpm has the sledge hit it 5,000 a minute. There is a full film of oil surounding all the moving parts and not oil diluted in gasoline.
We have seen growing pains with the CRF's, some of which were because of the week link, the connecting rod which I warned JR Clasen and Charlie Tackett prior to it happening. Other than that, a few silly problems, but nothing crazy.
Andy, what did it cost you after the wrist pin bearing failed in your kart? I heard $1200 to $1500 for a Russell cylinder, I think Rob's bill for 2 cases, a Falicon crank, and a new cylinder was about that or less.
I have nothing against 2 strokes, been there done that, but there is very limited choices for good ICE motors, and lets not bash what we have.

Andy, you ran against the 450's and beat them, so what's the problem with upping the CC's, afraid it might even things up? Laughing

Andy, please don't take it personal, I'm just tired of hearing the broken record...

Chris R.

Andy Kiker · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject:

Chris, I don't think I bashed the four strokes. I just wanted to voice my concerns. I am not a four stroke expert by any means. I can just go by what I have seen and heard. I don't want to see the cost get out of hand for the 2 or 4 strokes. yes, 2 stroke parts can be expensive too as I said before. As far as upping the CC's it is another add cost and performance gain.
I am not afraid of evening things up I just don't want to see it go the other way. I think they are petty even right now buy wka rules. as you said I beat them but I don't think it was on the straits.

As I said just my opinion. Cool

and another thing those darn things are just way to loud Crying or Very sad

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject:

Andy, maybe "bashing" was too strong a word, but I've been hearing everbody who doesn't own one say what's wrong with them. I honestly don't think anybody is concerned with how much myself or anybody that owns a 4 stroke spends on it. I don't stay awake at night counting Randy's seizers!!!
I also think that having 1/2 the power pulses, the motors should have twice the displacement, that's pretty much been a standard since Otto Diesel designed the internal combustion engine.

So by saying, "seeing it go the other way" does that mean you think the 250's have the advanatge now? Laughing

Good feedback guys...

Chris R.

Charlie Tackett · Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:53 am Post subject:

Andy Kiker · Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:34 am Post subject:

Chris, its like NASCAR if you aren't running what I have then you have the advantage Wink

Maybe you should try running a 500cc diesel Laughing

CHRIS TAYLOR · Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:57 am Post subject:

Hey Guys,

My grandfather used to work on two stoke diesels.. Very Happy

Chris Taylor

George Sunderland · Joined: 26 Jul 2001 Posts: 2006

Chris, no matter how much you wish for it, 2 strokes won't be "extinct" for awhile. Just an example, Yamaha has commited to producing the Banshee through 2007 with 10 years additional parts availability. And, ever go to India or China? With their lax environemntal laws and the cheap production of 2 strokes, they are still the motor of choice for scooters and low displacement street bikes. 2 strokes will however have to modernize. I like Anthony's description of the difference. He is dead on. In the late '70s we all had to run our Macs with the Open Briggs on local dirt tracks. The crowd loved it because the Briggs would pull harder off the turn only to be passed at the end of the straight by the screaming Mac. Unfortunately, the 2 strokes almost always did a 360 erntering the turn trying to mantain speed. All said, they weree fairly well matched but at the ewnd of the night, the Open Briggs guys were ready to hit the bars and the 2 stroke guys were ready to go to bed. Time goes on but things don't change as much as we think they do.