cyro brake discs

[Henrik Thun Rasmussen]

Does anybody have any info on cyrogenic freezing brake disc Ive warped a set of front disc and put hot spots on the rear 1/2" vented disc on my enduro, I have some new disc in good condition and think I heard cyro would be good for them. Does any body have any experience with this, how much doesit cost and weres a good place, our club had a sponsor who did this I think it was in virgina but cant find the place. Thanks in advance, henrik

[Tim Doll]

Henrik

I may well get flamed for this, but I'm an aerospace engineer (masters degree), with 25 years experience. My knowledge of material technology suggests that cryro shouldn't work. Very cold temperatures inhibit molecular movement, which suggests to me that making something very cold will simply prevent anything from changing during the process. Now, I readily admit that my speciality is not metalurgy, but I've talked to people who do specialize in metalurgy - perhaps I'm missing something. Well, if I'm missing something, the 'specialists' I've talked to must be missing it also, since they couldn't understand how it would do any good either.

If you are hurting your brake discs, there are three things to do (not necessarily in this order): Use cast iron discs (better warp resistance than steel), use a thicker and/or vented disc, add cooling air.

Tim

[Rodney Ebersole]

Henrik,There are gains to be had by useing the cryo treatment. There is also many critics of the cold process, but I think you would find that the critics have not done the research. I am a karter and also have a Cryogenic Processor. You can contact me by clicking on my name. The company I bought my processor from has a great deal of information,tests,studies, linked on there web site. http://www.300below.com One of my best customers is seeing at least double the wear resistance of the stock cast iron brake rotors that I have been treating for them to use in SCCA for the last 3 years. I now have 14 more sets to treat for them again. The amount of gain in wear resistance varies depending upon the metals alloy and how well it was heat treated originailly. Generally if an alloy contains austenite further improvements will be seen after deep cryogenic treatment. But don't beleave me, go to there web site and read the different Universities studies. Tim Doll, I am surprized that the metalurgist that you talked with didn't have a clue? You are right about cold slowing the molecular movement, It doesn't stop moveing untill absolute 0. Thats part of how or why it works. Transformation of Martensite to Austenite accures during the cooling process of heat treating. This transformation does not stop at room tempeture where heat treatments stop, it continues to transform untill all mulecular movement stops.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Rodney Ebersole ]

[Jimmy Moore]

One big problem with cryo treatment is there's no way (I know of) to prove it's really been done. There are probably places out there that really do it and, do it right but, the field is wide open for scam artists. If you cryo people out there want to increase your market share, come up with a method that shows the process has really been done.

[Tim Paul]

I couldnt agree with Tim more! Isnt it about time we agreed Tim?

And lets say it did do something...

Wouldnt the first time you heated your brakes up to the point where they would normaly warp kill the whole thought of the process.

But hey Ive been wrong before and I am sure I will be wrong again.

Tim

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Tim Paul ]

[Tim Doll]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rodney Ebersole:
Tim Doll, I am surprized that the metalurgist that you talked with didn't have a clue?

---

OK Rodney, I did some futher 'research'. I went to one of our technical experts, and ask him about cyro. This is an exact quote of his response:

"The big chill improves material stability prior to machining. Whether there are any significant benefits to cryo stabilizing cart materials (I'm assuming a really deep chill is implied) as opposed to more routine freezing (say -40 +/-) seems pretty questionable. What I would suggest is you check into how the parts used as a baseline were manufactured - maybe they used rolled or cast material without any stabilization in which case the machining process may have warped the parts prior to your abuse accentuating local deformation."

Sounds to me like if the part was made right in the first place, cyro won't do much good. If the part is cheaply made, it can help (which would explain why it apparently works well on KT100s).

Personally, I'd go for the properly made part.

Tim

[Rodney Ebersole]

Jimmy, that sounds like your discribing a blueprinted motor builder. The results can be seen with x-ray and electron microscope. But gee, I all ready spent my wad on the cyo chamber and a large oven. Then spent the rest of it on cheap kart parts. My processor has computer controlled ramp rates that take the parts down to -300 degrees f. There is a processor/heat treater, Newton Heat Treating, out of California that can give you a x-ray of before and after, I am sure that doesn't coast anything to do? I have all but given up on the red tape trail to marketing the cryo treatment to the masses.I don't have enough education or scam artistry to convince technical experts to look beyond there trained practices. My processor is now a nother tool in the tool box that I will lone to another kater/racer/builder or any one wanting to experiment and learn more. Tim, A couple of key words in our quote. "Seems Questionable" and " I would go for the properly made part" The first leaves a lot of room for questions on it's effects then the secound I don't think there is much chioce in what parts we get. If you got a NASA budget maybe you could have them make them for you, but most racers use some sort of stock parts most of the time. Coast effective? Depends what you pay for it. It's not a mystical sience. There all ready has been plenty of studies and test done to know how and why it works if one wants to learn.

[Stan Smith]

I'm no scientist, but isn't the idea kind of like heat treating only in reverse?
I always thought it was, till I was sold some cyro treated spark plugs that showed " 50-100 more rpm on the dyno". Have seen cyro cams, cranks, engine cases, etc. How could cyro treating help the performance of a cam shaft or spark plug??
I have been exposed to heat treated auto racing parts and was always happy with the results.
I would never pay for cyro work without some form of workorder from the treatment plant with ID numbers listed for verication.

SS.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Stan Smith ]

[SteveFong]

I'm no scientist, but have read several articles by reputable car magazines that have done before and after tests on cryo treated brake rotors. Their conclusion was that the brakes ran much cooler under identical tests (hard stops from 60MPH, repeated 5-10 times) leading to significantly less brake fade and longer life for the rotors and pads.

The metalurgical reason given was that the cryo process (properly done) caused the metal molecules to rearrange themselves in a way that significantly increases heat dissapation from the rotors. Faster heat dissapation means cooler rotors and lower pad wear.

I have used cryo treated rotors on my Z06 and can tell you that there was less fade and better rotor and pad life under racing conditions(about double the life of untreated rotors)

I also know that the nascar guys cryo everything, motor parts, brakes, just about everything in between.

There have been a lot of threads on this subject on various racing forums. My conclusion is that there is something to it, if done properly (which is a slow 24 hour process of taking the metal down to the freezing point, keeping it there for another 24-48 hours, and then slowly bringing it back up to room temp, followed by heat treatment in an oven.)

[Rodney Ebersole]

Stan Smith, Cryo treatment is an extension to heat treating not a replacement of heat treating. I guess I will have to call my home shop, plant # 1 and enter work order numbers on my P.O. invoices. I could print it on a letter head with a picture of smoke stacks on it too. Then would beleave that the part has been treated? In my past business dealings I found that happy customer will come back over and over again and also tell others to give it a try. I'll stick to my old ways on that. The funny thing I have found about treating spark plugs is that the colder heat range of some plugs break during the process. Assembled dissimular materials (metal/porclain) are not the ideal way to treat parts. If I could treat the electrode and metal caseing before they were assembled it would be better. A light bulb will live threw the process and the filiment would be improved but the seal at the metal to glass I think is jepordized. The only benifits that would come from treating a cam would be the increase in its wear resistance and it's ability to maintain its shape at a higher temp than before. Kart motors are not that good of a test bed for wear resistance. When a tuner or driver can burn the motor up with a twist of a screw the test just became uncontrolled.

[Stan Smith]

[
Iam not saying you, or anyone else in the "cyro" bussiness, does anything wrong!
I'm saying that I would never order "cyro" treated parts from a *dealer* unless he could show me that he gets work done by a cyro company, because there is no way to tell if treatment was done, thats all.
BTW where can I find a rate sheet?
SS

[Jimmy Moore]

I want something I can hide inside my engine that will change color, rupture or do something so I'll know that it's been down to -300.

[Rodney Ebersole]

Jimmy Moore, I pull the crank seals out of the block because they crack up when put threw the process. If left in you would know. Or gee I could take a picture of the part in the unit with a veiw of the digital temp gage. But then again if your that skeptical, you might as well forget about it.