Why did Stock Appearing and Open classes die?

Pete Muller

In another thread, Scotty Brolley asked:

Mike Goebel

wally wallen · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: 100 Open class

Pete, you may be right about the reasons for the demise of the stock appearing and 100 open class, I really don't know for sure. But one thing for sure, you are right about the fact that they were great classes. I've been involved in racing of many types for over 50 years and 35 in karting and some of the best racing I have ever witnessed were the 100 open road races.
We moved into these classes as soon as Buddy was old enough and he won many titles driving for Russells when he worked there. Light weight, fast, great handling, slippy pipes, methanol, short tech and inovation. Loved it.
Ah, the good old days.
Wally
PS, if you didn't spend so much time on here, you'd have time to fix 2 Pavesi cases for me. Laughing

Pete Muller · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject:

Wally,

As you probably remember; the interesting thing about those days is that people generally followed a "progression" through classes.

If you were enduro racing (or really even sprint racing), it was a given that you'd start in McCulloch classes.

Maybe when you got good enough, you might consider Reed Open or Stock Appearing, and only after doing that for a while did people move to Opens.

There wasn't really much or anything that dictated this in the rulebook... it's just "the way it was".

I remember racing McCulloch classes, and just drooling over the Open karts... and thinking to myself: "some day, I'll be able to race an Open".

It also worked in reverse: the best drivers/racers generally stuck to faster or Open classes. It really wasn't until the mid-70's that you started to see the hotter, more experienced racers going back and "cherry picking" the slower classes.

Kathy Hartman was probably one of the first to do this. I remember reading about her racing all these classes at the Nationals, and thinking to myself: "why would anyone do that?".

Then when the KT100 showed up, it seemed that EVERYONE put one together! In short order, it was split into Amateur and Expert because you had people with years and years of experience jumping in and just destroying the field of less experienced racers.

By the later 70's, it was a free-for-all. Any class was fair game.

Different times... that's for sure!

Pete

Tim Wehrly · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:08 am Post subject:

Kathy Hartman, oh my goodness there is name from the past. If memory serves I do belive that her nick name was 'Poopy'. This came from her comment on the performance of her motor when she got into the pits!! and she was just flying Laughing

Stock Appearing Light/Heavy were great roadracing/enduro classes. I had an engine builder from Visalia, Ca. - name escapes me now - build a great Komet rotary motor - great fun - Riverside/Laguna/Onterio/Las Vegas/Willow Springs/Sears Point/Kent. Slippy pipes and an experimental clutch from Doug Henline - oh to be young again Rolling Eyes

Pete, you are correct as to the demise of Stock Appearing, The Kt100 classes grew and the Rotary/Reed classes shrunk. KT100 cheap speed and larger classes.

Open class motors - water cooled and hand built, burning alcohol, lubed with Castrol - little rockets

ron brolley · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:56 am Post subject:

I just don't understand the concept behind the so called spec classes. I could go and spend anywhere between $1100-$1500 on a Yamaha and it still might be a dog and it's brand new never run. Where as if they allowed more open rules a poorer engine could be brought more in line with a top shelf engine due to porting, timing, etc. Just look at the Briggs classes they were introduced for low cost karting now these lawnmower engines have $2000 price tags for a engine that cost $250 from SmallEngineWarehouse.com. Do you think if they had more relaxed rules you would see these $2500 or more Yamaha's and Comers go away since regular or sub par engines could be beefed up so to speak to run with the top shelf motors? Pete hit the nail on the head with the progression of karter and the classes a karter could run with time and experience under his belt. You now have mulitple national champions running Yamaha classes which I think is crazy. I would think that they would want to progress up the ladder not regress. All I know is that now with the demise of open classes I can't go any higher in the laydown ranks then Yamaha pipe because I have some old K-55's my dad gave me and I would have to run against the new ICA and Euro-5 design engines and I wouldn't stand a chance unless it was a open class or stock appearing because then I would be able to hog my current engines out and at least have somewhat of a chance. I could run Nationaly and run open but with college being my number one focus monies are tight and I can't afford newer Reed engines. Now a days stock appearing means you don't have to run there crappy spec oil and spec fuel.

Scotty

P.S. Mike and Pete I'm going to the local community college for my electrician's classes and I need to do a 3 year apprenticeship with either the union (IBEW) or a local contractor so there are still some of us going to school for trades and taking apprenticeships. Man I can't wait to graduate then I can buy some new Reedjets! Lol.

Pete Muller · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject:

Scotty,

I believe you're absolutely correct.

Historically, any time a spec/sealed/tightly-controlled engine has been introduced, the engine (or the concept) has been greeted with enthusiasm.

Inevitably, that enthusiasm wanes after a period of time.

Either the engine succumbs to "rule creep" like the KT100 (search for those words in this forum and you'll find some lengthy posts I've made on that subject), or if the rules are really tightly controlled, you get a few fast engines that are either horded by a few people, or sell/trade for absolutely astronomical prices.

Neither is good for the sport, IMO.

Larry Hayashigawa · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject:

Tim,

Pete Muller · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:03 am Post subject:

The "Proline" clutch built by Doug Henline came after the Bystrom (and Hegar) axle clutches, but before the Horstman axle clutch.

The first belt drive was run by Arnie Lockwood (a friend of Terry Hegar's, as I recall). Probably about early 1975.

I built a belt drive for my McCulloch (reed light/heavy) kart around October 1975. I used a "Gilmer" style timing belt (vs. the HTD style belt that Arnie used, as I recall).

Hartman Engineering showed up with 20mm wide HTD belts on their engine clutches in either late 1976 or early 1977 (as I recall). Up until that time, belt drives were only run on axle clutches.

Tim Doll · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:43 am Post subject:

Pete

I don't disagree with anything you wrote (and as long as I've been involved in karting, you were considered an old-timer when I started Shocked

).

My perspective was a little different. I drove my first race in 1979 - and was a full timer in 1980. That was when the Yamaha KT100S was first hitting the scene. Before the Yamaha, there seemed to be three major groups - slowest to fastest - Macs, Stock Appearing, and Opens. Problem was none of those were considered to be very reliable. While I never ran a Mac, I heard stories of people showing up at the track with 5 or 6 engines, and by the end of the weekend none of them still ran Shocked

. Compared to the Mac, Stock Appearing and even Open didn't look that bad. But then came the Yamaha and changed not just the game but the perceptions. Like you said, 13k was just about the limit of what they'd turn at that time, and at those rpms they lasted forever. I'd run half the season (~10-12 hours run time), put in a piston/ring, run the second half of the season, then have the whole engine rebuilt. I was completetively fast, won on occasion, and the engines rarely failed (and if it did it was probably because you ran it to lean and seized it). Those of us running Yamahas would look at Stock Appearing and Open, see 20 karts start a race and 2 finish, and decide we wanted no part of that. Rolling Eyes

.

When I decided I was ready to 'move up' to a faster class, I didn't switch to a faster engine, I added another Yamaha and started running 200cc Stock (which in those days really meant twin Yamahas since the class only allowed piston port engines, and the KT100S was the only approved PP engine).

One really sad part of it is that, over the years, I've run the DAP T-50, TKM BT-82, and Komet K-71 (basically an HPV) piston port engines. I'd take any one of those engines over the KT100S - with the TKM being arguably the best of the bunch, yet they're gone and the KT100S lives on Rolling Eyes

I ran the TKMs for several years in the late '80s/early 90's, and I never failed to finish a race due to engine problems. It was consistently fast - I couldn't quite stay with the fast K-71s, but was faster than anything else, and it didn't require much maintenance (piston/ring mid season, complete rebuild between seasons). I spent the 1995 season overseas, before I left I loaned one of my TKMs to a friend - it was due for a rebuild, but she was desperate for an engine so I let her run it 'as is'. Well that 'tired' engine ran the entire 1995 season - didn't even get a new piston - and ran well enough she won the club championship (which is what she was after anyway). The ONLY thing wrong with the BT-82 was the price of the parts, and I blame the importer for that - at that time I would occasionally travel to England on business - while there I could go to any kart shop and buy BT-82 parts, retail, for less than half what my builder was being charged to buy the parts wholesale in the states Evil or Very Mad

But that's the topic for a different thread......

Tim
_________________
Standard disclaimer - I'm FREE - No longer affiliated with any organization, I can say whatever I darn well please!.

Everett, Washington

Pete Muller · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:

Tim,

You're dead right. The Yamaha's were cheap and reliable compared to any thing else. At 12,500, they were downright indestructable.

There was one other issue that immediately made the Yamaha attractive to new karters -- fuel.

The Yamaha ran gasoline while every other class ran either methanol or a mix of gasoline and methanol (Stock Appearing racers typically ran however much methanol the controlled carb would pass... whiich was typically around 25% or so). To the new racer, stopping at the station on the way to the track was far easier.

Of course within a year or two, people were already starting to cheat on fuel... so that nice "concept" which was so attractive to the new racer was already starting to go out the window. Sad

wally wallen · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: Open class

OK, Pete, remember this:
Started Buddy out with a old Power Products motor, then Mac 49, on to Mac 91, then Mac 101, stock appearing Komet in Jr class and on to 100 open and B Bombs when he turned 16. Later it was TT75 etc. with Russells.
Now it's F125 laydowns only. Well maybe he will run the BRC 250 laydown that is in my shop now, if I ever get the kart back together.
I still think you should fix some Pavesi cases for me. I now have two in my shop that need your special touch. Laughing

Don't you think us old timers should help each other? Wink

Wally

Tim Wehrly · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:16 am Post subject:

Ahhh Yes ... Ed Shifert, what a great builder of quick motors. I broke an axle at Willow - that was a wild ride on the front straight - and stopped at his shop on the way back home and he fit a new axle to my kart. Stock Appearing was quick and fun while it lasted, we moved on to KT100 as Stock Appearing numbers shrank and KT100 entrys grew. As the Roadracing entrys started to mix Sprint and Laydowns in the same race you could tell that the laydown racers, though quicker, had less people in their races and that the Sprint - sit chassis - would be the wave of the future.

Bill W Johnson · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject:

Some of you guys are good candidates for the Vintage Enduro Racing like I am doing now. I just ran Road Atlanta with a Reed Open Mac and finished 2nd to a K78 Open Rotary. Come on guys.... get that old stuff out and fix it up for racing again. You only live once!

We run VIR, Summit Point, Roebling Road, Kershaw, Road Atlanta, Barbers.

Rick Beaver · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject:

Well here in the midwest ,mainly in th KART road racing series 100 open,IS still alive &well,the number of entries comes&goes,but there is a core group that still runs,(Imyself should be runnin that class too),yes is really is the neatst thing to see,the tinkering,experminting ,billit made motors,and really when it's all said & done these motors do'nt cast any more to run that astock yamaha(ha belive that if you will,but it is true).Pete if you can come back this way ,bring that "ole stuff"&come &run it,C YA ,Rick beaver,raytown,Missouri