Front brakes...

[Bob Ogden]

To add to Mitch's comments, I went to the CRC website and priced what it would take to upgrade an Arrow 30/32. $1150!
One kind soul has recommended here that we just scrap our TaG chassis and go buy a 125 chassis. Does that person have $$$ to take mine off my hands?
I've surveyed a few people who have front brakes on Leopard karts, and they ALL have disconnected them. They said that the fronts made them drive like they were driving shifters without the acceleration off the corners. In other words, went in too deep and braked too hard losing momentum.
I have two road races, albeit at Fernley, and several practice days at Prairie City (try that with bad brakes) and gone through one set of pads.

[Chad Stapleton]

[Axel Korn]

[quote="Chad Stapleton

So, your pads last 1.5 hrs ??...how would you guys survive a 4, 6, or 12 hour race ??[/quote]

Thank you Chad. You summed it up. They would never last 4 hours. My point exactly.

[joseph hollinger]

[Richard Haight]

Dear Chad, Mitch and Bob:

If you are going to make comparisons, at least don't try to change the subject or context, to make your point appear valid.

In most Road racing, although the speeds are higher, many tracks can be driven with a lot less brake use, simply because "Most" karts are not as fast as some cars. Running a lay-down enduro at Willow Springs, a lot of the track can be driven(like turn 1) with just a slight lift of the throttle, certainly no major braking. Ergo, very moderate brake usage. OF COURSE the brakes will last for 2 seasons, they are hardly being used!

We are however, discussing sprints too, where the average brake use is significantly higher.

To say that someone raced a season on a set or two of pads is nice. But anecdotal at best, and certainly not scientific by any means. Some of the sprint chassis's (the CRG Maximo was the one I mentioned) simply go through pads..... period! It doesn't matter which brand or compound, they have small, thin pads, which offer very little heat dissapation, and it wears quickly. I frankly don't give a "rat's you know what", what your experience has been..... I have other brands of chassis which have quite decent brake pad life.... but some don't! Rather then saying " I get great life out of my XYZ brand brakes.... so you must be doing something wrong", do your homework, and realize that some brands are not so lucky.

Yes, if you call up the dealer and ask how much it costs to buy a new front brake set-up with all new parts at FULL RETAIL Prices, it will look bad. However, I assume that most people involved enough to read through Ekartingnews on a regular basis, are smart enough to know how to buy parts at reasonable prices. Maybe I am giving some people too much credit? (You think?)

I buy a fair amount of stuff from this site, so I have a good idea of what things cost. My comment about using a 125 chassis, was aimed at those who are looking for a good chassis, and if they need front brakes, will buy accordingly. With as many people buying new chassis's each and every year ("Oh, I have to have this year's model!!!"), there are always lots of quality bargains out there.

Come on guys, be realistic. If it ends up that front brakes are optional or even mandatory (and I am not asking, or even suggesting that they should be mandatory), there is more then one way to "Skin a cat", and you are trying to justify your point by making unrealistic comparisons.

Oh.... and the comment about "Budget front and rear brakes", versus
"Quality" rear brakes. shame on you, that was disingenuous at best... NO ONE SUGGESTED USING "BUDGET" ANYTHING, so stop trying to make your point by making mis-leading comparisons.

If you don't like front brakes, don't run them. But don't try to denigrate or insult those who would choose to run them. This is not an "I'm right, your wrong issue".... I would prefer the safety and balance of 4 wheel brakes. If you are happy with rear only..... by all means, run what you like.

[joseph hollinger]

[Chad Stapleton]

[Mitch Gillick]

Richard, don't be a jerk! There was nothing disingenuous about my statement. I certainly don't find any comfort in the idea of someone being right behind me at 90 mph, with a set of cheap front brakes, thinking that he can out brake me and try to take the inside line.

The same guy that buys an inexpensive helmet, because he just doesn't have enough money to buy a top quality one, is likely to be the same person that will scrape together enough money to buy a low budget set of front brakes.

There has got to be a class that keeps costs to a minimum... If it's not going to be the TaG class, what class is it going to be?

Isn't it odd... The only opposition to the idea of an "Open TaG" class seems to be coming from racers that want to be allowed to run front brakes.

[Richard Haight]

Mitch:

Exactly what are you referring to as "Budget" front brakes? I am unaware of any aftermarket, low budget brake set-ups. All of my comments assume that front brakes would be current technology, and probably brakes of the same manufacturer as the kart.

That is why I said your comments were disingenuous, because there aren't any "Cheap" brake kits being sold to retro-fit karts without them.

A lot of people buy chassis with front brakes, and use them in classes where no front brakes are allowed. The example of Rotax/TAG heavy classes. 125 shifter chassis seem to work well for that class, but front brakes are not allowed in Rotax. So..... there are original equipment front brakes available from sources OTHER then going down to the local "Brand X" Dealer, and paying retail. As recent ads on this forum will prove, some of those people take off the front brake system, ......and they are willing to sell them!!!

My comment about being disingenuous was because you made it sound like some schlep is going to run down to the local Pep-Boys store, and buy some aftermarket $99.95 brake system (which we all know doesn't exist) and bolt it on his $2500 or $3000 chassis.

I believe that you know better, ergo..... my comment.

I would hope that tech inspection in your area would inspect the brake system, just as they do here, so I don't think anyone would be running some cheap system.

I am not sure what your last comment was aimed at, so enlighten me. Who is opposed to an open TAG Class, and what in the world does that have to do with this discussion?

Have an open TAG Class. Great!, I would be tickled to buy one of the new European version (open carb, digital ignition) Motori-7 TAG engines. You know, the one that produces 40 BHP!

[Mitch Gillick]

Richard, I did some searches and came up blank. But, I know that there were some forum postings (probably over a year ago), where there was discussion of being able to add front brakes for around $300.00 to $350.00. I never inquired about the brand, because I just couldn't imagine getting a quality conversion kit for that low of a price... It would be the same as if someone said to me; "Hey, so and so makes a good helmet for $100.00"... I'm just not likely to take the time to research it and go look at it?

Anyway, that has just kind of stuck in my mind... I would consider that to be a low budget price, especially if you are planning on being at of above 100 mph every time that you go to the track.

Regarding the opposition to an "Open TaG" class... Axel made the point that it would be the first step in going down the same path, as with all of the different Yamaha classes. And, that is a legitimate concern. I have also had private communications, with a couple of individuals that would prefer to be able to run front brakes, but aren't embracing the idea of an additional TaG class... Maybe "opposing the idea" wasn't the proper choice of words... Maybe I should have said; "Not embracing the idea."

In addition, I've probably carried some frustration over from a somewhat similar thread, in the "Road Racing" forum, where there is a proposal to change the wording in Sec 302, which in effect would prevent ANY class from not allowing front brakes.

I will say it again and again... I am not against optional and / or mandatory front brakes. What I am against is changing the rules on the fastest growing class in the country. And, in the case of road racing, I am against making a blanket rule that would prevent IKF from disallowing front brakes in any class for any reason.

[Richard Haight]

Mitch;

Fair comments, and a little more measured then before.

Thanks for recognizing the validity of the other sides viewpoints.

[Tim Doll]

[RANDY QUISMORIO]

Mitch
I'm all for not having front brakes on sprint tracks, I race both sprint and roadrace and have karts for both types of racing. And from personal experience I can tell you that my kart without front brakes is faster, then running a kart with front brakes on a sprint track. And listening to other comments posted they agree with you about front brakes on a sprint track. Now on the other hand on roadrace tracks i think it should be a option left to the driver, if he or she wants to run front brakes. I know I would be hard pressed to race at speeds hovering around 100 mph in a kart without front brakes. And if you havnt tried roadracing, you should give at a try and im sure at the end of the day you'll agree

[Bob Ogden]

I road race a TaG kart almost exclusively, and I don't agree. With the runoff areas at most natural terrain road courses, there's ample runoff for a situp kart to stop. Since I haven't done any of the big bowls since I raced a motorcycle at Ontario, I can't speak for them.
Sprint tracks, on the other hand, can be a different story. The top speeds are lower, but the hay bales, barriers, whatever, are a lot closer.
I'd actually be more inclined from a pure safety standpoint, which is what those who insist on everyone spending $1K for something most don't want, that front brakes for TaG be optional for sprints. Then we can see how many disable them after a couple of races.
Or make them mandatory and see how many are left after the rule takes effect.
If it's "safety" related, then how bout ALL karts being required to run fronts starting with the cadets.
Start with ALL NEW karts sold in the U.S. I'll bet most dealers are really willing to go for that, sell a $4K chassis instead of a $3K. Folks will be lined up at the door for that one.
Since you're educating us on the difference between RR and Sprint, maybe Mitch will come in and tell us (if he can remember ) the last time he ran a sprint race.

[Chris Parks]