Front brakes...

Axel Korn · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:28 pm Post subject:

Mitch, proposing "TaG Open" would be the first step in going down the same fragmented path that we now have with 10 Yamaha classes.

I would rather buy more brake pads, than consider that option.

That's my point Tim. I do have a vented rear rotor, but adding front brakes could potentially reduce the cost substantially and everyone can benefit from it.

Ben Bottomley · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject:

Thats a relief to hear I am not the only one throwing 4 brake pads into a race day. I have been thinking my brake system was the issue.

joseph hollinger · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:02 pm Post subject:

Rob Linders · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 725

Joseph,

What chassis and brake system are you using compared to the others. Ben and Axel, what are you using?

joseph hollinger · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:27 pm Post subject:

Richard Haight · Joined: 18 Apr 2002 Posts: 270

While we can debate all day long about front brakes, I find the comments that "it would cost a lot to add front brakes", either disingenuous, or a simple failure to do the homework.

Many people in Rotax or TAG (heavy) classes, already use a 125 shifter Chassis, because it has been shown to work better. So, what that means, is that a lot of people have been removing or disconnecting the front brakes. But, they still have them!

Although some karts have a dual rear brake set-up, which is better then a single, it does not provide as much safety, You are still feeding the heat of two full calipers into the mass of one disc. Can you say "Heat"?

As more organizations allow, or even mandate front brakes for some classes, such as the recent change to 80cc shifter classes, front brakes will become the norm, not the exception.

As some have mentioned, the use of front brakes seems to reduce the overall wear of the brake system, with many people going half a season with little brake wear, as compared to some of the CRG's Maximo's, which went through a set of rear pads in half of a practice day, and ruined discs as well! It sounds like front brakes equates to = (A)"Better Braking" (B) Less wear, and therefore potentially less expense, and (C) SAFER!

There are SO many good used chassis and parts out there, that getting a set of front brakes is probably less expensive then everyone wants to make it seem.

I would prefer to have full brakes, front and rear, it simply works better. Yes, I am sure that there are those who will say "I go pretty fast without it, so why change?", but the truth is that you will probably go even faster with them.

Although many of us do not have any aspirations to move up to cars, a lot of racers do..... and in case you haven't noticed, virtually every full size race car built, has 4 wheel brakes! You might as well learn to use them, and to set them up now, rather then play catch up later!

Some organizations allow front brakes, but impose a 10 pound weight penalty. Hey, add the front brakes, which is about a 5 pound addition, and it is 5 pounds less of lead to add on!

Rob Linders · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 725

joseph hollinger · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:49 pm Post subject:

John Denman · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:07 pm Post subject:

When I first proposed the TAG Standards we let people vote on allowing front brakes or not. We had about 35 interested parties, mostly track owners, that voted. 21 against, 14 for. I woud have made 15 for, but I didn't vote.

During our testing we used a Trackmagic Spitfire chassis as the test mule. This is a 32MM thats very similar to the Diablo. I also put both a Leopard and a Rotax on one of our Diablos and tested to see what the differences were - front brakes were about 3/10 slower at NTK in both directions. Like an 80, the TAG power seems to be faster by with rear only brakes.

I would still like to see it as an option, but my voice is now just one in the crowd with TAG.

I have to agree it does make for some different driving characteristics that might be a little less safe at the beginner level. I don't agree that it would drive the cost up since it would be optional, and at most tracks slower. It's certainly not a "must have" component.
_________________
John Denman
Producer for RTMP
http://www.kartweb.com

Chad Stapleton · Joined: 19 Jul 2001 Posts: 4403

Richard Haight · Joined: 18 Apr 2002 Posts: 270

Chad:

I don't disagree that karts are meant to be relatively simple and cost effective. If we are talking about KT100's or HPV's or the like, I have no problem with just rear brakes.

However, as you rightly mentioned, the TAG karts are approaching 30 HP, and in the senior classes, nearly 400 pounds.

Whether it is front brakes, or dual (and separate!) rear brake systems, is not the point. Karts on average tracks have progressed to the point that they are going over 75 miles an hour down the straights. And all of the tracks are not up to "Current Safety standards". Many have short turns at the end of fast straightaway's with no effective run-off.

It would be nice if we had better brakes, but as karts are supposed to be "relatively simple", the technology has NOT kept pace with the speeds.

As far as the pad wear problem, you can say what you wish, but the both the original pad and disc combination, as well as other pads, and a new factory disc, all went through pads like toilet paper. It was an under-designed system, built by CRG to a "Price Point", and it was inadequate.

Dai Feng · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:01 pm Post subject:

John Denman · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject:

Axel Korn · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Tag Front brakes

Mitch Gillick · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:16 pm Post subject:

Axel, please don't ask IKF to rewrite the rules for EVERYONE else, because you have brake pad issues... I got 3 full race seasons (at least 3,000 road racing miles), on three sets of Brembo brake pads, on a CTS 80 shifter (rear brakes only)... And, that included lots of play days at sprint tracks.

At Thunderhill Park (3-mile road course), no 80 shifter that I know of has ever tried to run front brakes more than once or twice... They always take them off, because it is faster and less complicated to run rear brakes only.

The fastest 80 shifters are a full 10 seconds per lap faster than the fastest Leopard time... I'm a mid-packer, running on YDS tires, but I've still run laps over 4 seconds faster than the fastest Leopard.

Yesterday, I was quoted $960.00 (master cylinder, reservoir, brake lines, rotors, calipers, etc.), to add matching Brembo front brakes to my kart... That's a pretty large percentage of the total cost of most TaG karts. Some of you might say that you don't need to spend a lot of money for brakes... But, I feel much safer running quality rear brakes only, versus running budget front and rear brakes. As far as I'm concerned, if you are running budget front and rear brakes, versus quality rear only brakes, you are not only putting yourself at risk, you are also putting everyone else at risk as well.