Front brakes...

[Chip Durham]

Should TagUSA consider front brakes on the karts? My understanding is that TaG is supposed to allow the 100cc driver the ability to move to a watercooled 125 class without the expense of buying a new chassis. In theory it makes sense and if I were coming in with a 100cc chassis it would be a financially easy transition. But with most TaG motors producing a fair amount of HP capable of propelling them to respectable top speeds, should TaG consider going to front brakes, maybe as an option?

[Axel Korn]

There are pros and cons to that debate, but considering the weight and speed, I would welcome it for several reasons.

[Mitch Gillick]

The rules are all laid out and the class is growing like crazy... Don't mess with it!

If you add front brakes, you are liable to bring the fantastic growth that the TaG classes are experiencing to a screeching halt... No pun intended.

If you are looking at it from a safety perspective... It will make it a lot safer, primarily because you will have half as many karts on the track, due to the lack of entries.

[Debbie Kuntze]

Actually the TaG USA rules do have the option for front brakes in Road Racing, rule 3.3. The rub is currently TaG doesn't run road races in their series.

I believe they put the rule in to cover anyone with a TaG who wants to run Road Race since several other organizations REGUIRE the front or dual system if running road race with anything above 100 cc. SCK has hosted several Rotax/TaG events at our regular road race events and many prefer the option of running the front/doual system when on the longer courses (ie Fontana)


_________________
Debbie Kuntze
kart9899@aol.com
www.uskgp.com

[joseph hollinger]

[tim finley]

I would like to see front brakes as an option. The tag karts do reach some good speed and loosing your only means of slowing down while traveling at 75-79 mph can really raise the heart rate.

I mostly race long track and will not race without front brakes. The tag karts hit 95+mph on many tracks. But, even the speed stated above for sprint racing is very fast on a small track.
_________________
KGB/motori/#77

[Axel Korn]

Mitch....What makes you think that front brake options would motivate half the TaG drivers to ditch the class?

[Mitch Gillick]

I believe that front brakes would have a negative effect on the TaG class, because it isn't what current TaG owners bought into.

There are a lot of people that want; "Simple, reasonably inexpensive (as motorsports goes), spec everything - no modifications." And, a lot of people have been voting with their pocket books... People that you never hear a word out of. These people have been buying TaG packages... And, lots of them.

Is there anyone that believes that TaG is growing for some other reason?

[Debbie Kuntze]

Mitch:

One important aspect, the TaG class became a National class in IKF while UNDER the rule that the front/dual brakes were optional in 2002 & 2003. People were already running the class as local and regional optionals. Some with brakes, some without. When that paragraph got taken out many people were left out in the cold. To many it is the preceived saftey factor of having the option which out weighs cost. To run without brakes when going to a sprint race, etc., or maybe to a track where they want to remove the fronts, it is only a quick disconect.

I have the option on my enduro, 100 PP with slippy (at the time) to run optional. In the past at tight tracks I would run fronts, big tracks like Willow Springs, off they go, down on weight! Mine were on the spinals so would change spindals. Or like at Daytona one year, one class I ran they were required, another class I ran they were forbiddend, so connect, disconnect.

Also TaG USA rules from 2003 and 2004 state that they are optional for road racing.


_________________
Debbie Kuntze
kart9899@aol.com
www.uskgp.com

[Mitch Gillick]

Let's be careful about clarifying whether we are all talking about TaG sprint racing or TaG road racing... Because there are front brake discussions going on in both the TaG and the Road Racing categories of the forum.

In regards to sprint racing on sprint tracks, I don't think that front brakes should be allowed in the TaG class, for the reasons that I have stated in this thread.

In regards to road racing, I feel that if enough TaG road racers want to allow front brakes to be optional, then the rule for the TaG IKF National road race class should be modified (for 2005). What I am not in favor of is a blanket rule that makes front brakes optional in ALL road race classes.

[joseph hollinger]

[Debbie Kuntze]

Hey, I agree with you guys about the sprint track. No arguement there.
In sprint I believe there is an advantage into going in deep and out braking someone else. Can be said the same in road race, but you have to be really smooth with it or you kill all your speed coming off the corner onto that long straight, so any advantage going in, you just killed coming off and getting to the next turn.

I had gotten a PM about this topic under TaG, so answered here as requested. Not to mention, Mitch and I are having same discussion over in the road race forum

Sprint and road race are different animals even though they can cross over and we all try to keep the rules to help in the cross over, but some need a little modification due to speeds and other considerations. Even TaG USA recognizes that and has put it into their rules.
_________________
Debbie Kuntze
kart9899@aol.com
www.uskgp.com

[Axel Korn]

Mitch......

D. Living Document
This is a living document and as such is subject to revisions and changes as deemed necessary to continue the integrity of the TAG program


This is straight out of the rule book on the first page. Anyone who bought into the TaG program bought into a program that over time will include changes - and that may or may not include brakes.

With that said, I have dual calipers on my setup and I go through 2 sets of pads on a raceday. That may be my driving style, but irrelevant of that, it costs me $60.00 per race day in brake pads. Multiply that by 2 day race weekends and 10 events a year, the cost for brake pads totals $1200.00. That does not include any replacements for test weekends.

I know for a fact that other TaG drivers in NorCal and other parts of the country are experiencing the same issues.

Adding front brakes costs less than throwing pads at a situation as a band aid. Also the ICC guys certainly do not use pads even close to my problem and they carry more weight and speed than TaG does, which would mean that us using the same setup would last even longer.

Ulimately by having a similatr setup, the initial expense may be there, but long term will drastically reduce costs and that I think most TaG drivers would welcome that.

[Mitch Gillick]

Is there a reason that you don't want to propose a "TaG Open" class and a "TaG Spec" class?

You could group everyone that re-worked the cylinder on their TaG engines into the "TaG Open" class and make front brakes optional. Then, you could have a "TaG Spec" class which would be a stock engine (out of the box- no mods) with no front brakes.

There's more than enough karts, at a lot of the local club events... And, a lot of them have blueprinted engines that are running 1,000 to 1,500 more RPMs than the stock engines.

[Tim Doll]

I'm not ready to propose front brakes for TAGs for sprint racing, but along the line of what Axle wrote:

A few years back, I had several parents of 80 Junior drivers practically beg us to allow front brakes on the 80 shifters. As fast as the 80 Juniors were going (on the sprint track) they were destroying the rear-only brakes. One parent told me he had spent well over $1000 in less than a season on brake maintenance.

Nowdays, I road race almost exclusively - I have little interest in going back to sprinting or the dirt (to hard on this old body). Several years ago I road raced twin engine karts - two 100 cc engines (either reed or piston port). Depending on the track and the rules, top speed of over 120 mph, and 400 to 450 lbs. While I always ran front brakes in that class, for a while I ran those crummy single sided Enginetic fronts that didn't do much. And I destroyed brakes - both the rears and those crummy fronts. I brake pads come apart (more than once), I melted those plastic brake lines, I even had a rear brake disc come apart. I finally went to full disc fronts and a big vented rear. Suddenly I stopped having brake problems (and they needed little maintenance). Sure, the initial cost was high, but in the long run it was safer AND saved money.

The last several years I've run a 100cc Controlled Stock (ReedJet). On a long straight it will hit 115 mph, and the weight is around 400 lbs. Until about a year ago it had full disc fronts and a single solid disc on the rear. And it was hard on brakes - while I didn't suffer the failures that I had with the twin, the brakes required lots of maintenance (often expensive), and when one time I had a problem with the fronts in a race, even though I tried to baby the brakes, the solid rear disc couldn't take the extra stress and overheated to the point I had to pull in. Last year I replaced the solid disc with the vented rear setup (that I still had after I had retired the twin engine kart). Not only are the brakes now stronger and more consistent, I've all but stopped having to do brake maintenance. Heck, I can even go a half season before I need to re-shim the fronts.

Good brakes are a lot cheaper than most people think.......

Tim
_________________
Standard disclaimer - I'm FREE - No longer affiliated with any organization, I can say whatever I darn well please!.

Everett, Washington