Sonik & Vortex TaG info

Mike Walpole · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:38 am Post subject: Sonik & Vortex TaG info

I'm looking for info from people with experiance running the SoniK and Vortex TaG motors on a sprint track. I am also looking at the Leopard; however, I have plenty of info on that package at this point.

The information I am interested in is how user friendly these motors are to setup and run, maintainence schedules & approximate costs, and any plusses or minuses the motors may have.

I am looking at these packages because they run 15lbs heavier than the Leopard and, frankly, that would be better for me. Wink

Also, on the Vortex, I am not clear as to which carb the engine comes with. I have seen pictures with an adjustable pumper carb and with a Del Orto (sp?)

Thanks.

Greg Mason · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:37 am Post subject:

Mike- The Vortex uses the Dellorto carb. If you go to our website and click on the engines section, you will find a fairly comprehensive informational section about the Vortex ROK motor package, and a complete parts section for the motor in our online store. It jets very similar to an ICC motor, and is vey user friendly. It's maintenance schedules are very similar to other motors in this class using coated pistons. Also, the piston employs a "Dykes" type ring, which is a very efficient configuration for this type of motor.
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Dick George · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:19 pm Post subject:

Mike,
I have a similar problem with the weight, otherwise I'd just run my Rotax. I could lose weight, but nah!

So of the "heavy" motors there's the Italsistem - which apparently isn't really finished yet, the ROK - which is terribly sensitive to jetting and sticks frequently or the Sonik - which doesn't seem to have any dealers on the west coast. The Leopard seems to be a good motor, but it runs the same weight as a Rotax.

Sooooo, damn, its back to loosing weight and running the good old Rotax

Greg Mason · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:00 pm Post subject:

So Dick, please explain what you are basing your opinion of the ROK on.
I have had a very different experience from the one you are "Touting".
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Steve Rickman · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject:

"So of the "heavy" motors there's the Italsistem - which apparently isn't really finished yet, the ROK - which is terribly sensitive to jetting and sticks frequently"

we've sold over 40 Rok's in the last couple months and not stuck one yet so I dont understand what you are talking about? There was an isolated incedent that I heard of due too bad fuel and oil mixture. So far the tuning has been super easy.

Regards,
Steve
www.genesisracing.com

Mike Walpole · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject:

Well, I am not truely a fan of the Dellorto carb since I am an old time karter and I like having adjustable needles available to reach for. IMHO, it would be nicer with a Tilletson. I'm sure I could learn to tune the Dellorto, so that is not a big sticking point.

The Vortex exhaust looks more complicated to mount than the Sonik or Leopard, and it looks to be heavier too. I'm sure it is quiet though.

Does the Vortex still have the rev limiter at 13.8K?

Dick George · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:23 pm Post subject:

Hey, I have no axe to grind over any motor! I have no experience with any of them, and certainly not "touting" any of them! I was only commenting on what I read here on e karting from the people that race them. And it wasn't all negative, just cause for concern. Then there's the "in-your-face" crap from a dealer or two. I run Rotax, and I will continue to do so. I wanted to run in TAG too, but the Rotax weights are too low for me.
Looks like it might be best to wait a year for TAG to settle out or wait until a reputable local dealer carries one of them (or I suppose I could lose weight).

Kimi Yasumoto · Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 220

To Mike.

Re SONIK info. If in the East Coast I would advice to call TS Racing in Floridaor NYKart in New York. In the West Coast there are several dealers like Manning, Motokart and more. TS Racing 800-962-4108Ny Kart /Sp Performance 718-482-0005 Smile

steve dzurilla · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject:

Mike, Before you make your decision take a look at the weights again bacause IKF decided to come out with there own weights and now the SONIC is at 365lbs, 5 pounds under the leopard.See what rules your local club or track is going by and make your decision.TAG USA had there own weights,then dropped them all down 10lbs to follow SKUSA and now there back to there original weights, so I'm confused or crazy.Then comes IKF with completely different weights which has the ROK only 5lbs above the LEOPARD.I run the LEOPARD and I weigh 185lbs so 370lbs suits me perfect.A half tank of fule and zero weights on my kart is where I'm at.About the SONIK I was told by the winner of the SKUSA SUPERNATIONALS that it takes to much to maintain compaired to the leopard. Smile

Mike Walpole · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:17 am Post subject:

Thanks for all the responses and info so far. I have contacted a couple of dealers and have talked to dealers about the Leopard, Sonik and Vortex.

The last I looked, TaGUSA had the Leopard @ 360/385, the Sonik @ 375/405 and the VorTex @ 375/405 for Senior/Masters. Then there's OVKA which is running the Leopards @ 385, the Sonik and Vortex @ 400. When I run TaG I will either run OVKA or TaG Masters.

I do have some concerns about maintenance costs. From what I have been able to observe so far, the people who are fast are winding the Leopards up to 16.5K and the Sonik to 18K. Granted this is at a track, Camden, OH, which is pretty tight with relatively long straights. Depending on the class, we typically wind motors 500 - 800 rpm more here than at other tracks; altrhough, we don't spend a lot of time at the high rpm. (14.3K in can and 15.5K in pipe) The other tracks we race at, Circleville and New Castle, we turn more typical rpms. (13.7K can and 14.8K pipe)

My concerns at this point are that the motors may require more maintenance than advertized if the track dictates turning higher than recomended RPM to achieve the best lap times. Also, if the Vortex is RPM limited (rev limiter), might it be at a disadvantage at a track where "over-reving" produces faster lap times.

At this point I am going to wait and see. After about 4-5 races this season, it should become clear how to run these motors and what the maintenance schedules will be. For the amount of money these packages cost, I'm going to make sure I get a package that is competitive and that I can afford to maintain.

Clay Maddox · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:55 am Post subject:

I debated between the Rok, Leopard and Sonik. I finally choose the Sonik after talking to Kim Le Baron of MotoKart in California(408-543-8686) They have ran the Sonik for over a year with great success. He sold me on the engine. I have put 110 miles and 3.24 hours on the engine so far and have loved every bit of it. I turn mine at 16800-16950rpm and it pulls like a freight train. I have been running the New Castle Track in Indiana so far this year and most of it is tight with a 950ft straightaway. It is only in that upper rpm range for 0.3 of a second at the end of the straight. It uses a Tryton carb which is a Tillotson carb but much higher quality than the Tillotson that comes on the Leopard. It is very easy and responsive to needle tuning. The ignition system is much higher quality than the Leopard. The quality of all the parts on the Sonik is exceptional. Some people will say that since you crank the engine at 16500 or more the rebuild interval is more often but this engine is built to take that rpm. It is not mass produced like the Leopard. I like the clutch on the Sonik much better than the other TAG clutches. The Sonik clutch is a Horstman one disk dry clutch. It is the same one used on the HPV. There is alot less rotating mass to the whole unit then any of the shoe clutches used on the other TAG engines. I personally think the Sonik is the way to go. Be ready to clean your kart after break-in. They pack the bottom end of the engine with black tar or something. It took alittle while to run that junk out of the engine but it is good it was in there to seat the crank good. The engine package is very easy to install on any european chassis. A friend had some difficulties mounting it on a 04 Margay, but it was just little stuff like engine side lower seat post clearance and lack of water pump mounting bracket. I have no experience with with Rok but it is also a very good looking package from the build quality and fit and finish. Good luck on your decision.

erik nystuen · Joined: 06 Mar 2002 Posts: 319

Mike,

The Vortex Rok has a 30 mm Delo carb. As for the recent issues on sticking the motor, I wouldn't put to much into that, as those before you offer up the solutions to the problem and hence I belive that the issue is solved. I have also heard by the grape vine that the same outfit that provides the Jeting software for the Rotax-Max will soon provide the same for the Vortex and other TAG motors.

As for the Solnik, you should check with Chad at APD, I belive that they support the Solnik motor here on the west coast.
http://www.apdkartracing.com

When my Rotax bites the dust, I'll look you up and see what you are running, before I decide what to replace it with Cool

Cheers
Erik

Scott Haynes · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:26 pm Post subject:

The problem with the Roks has been road racing not sprint racing, and to compound the problem it has been on laydown karts. The problem is not complex to fix we just needed more fuel down low. I ran mine at a local sprint track and really like the way the motor pulls compared to my old leopard.

Mike Walpole · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject:

Great info so far. Thank you and keep it coming.

Basically, I look am looking at performance and value. Will the package be competitive at the venues I race at? Will the maintenance costs be afforadable running the package competitively? All the current packages are close enough in price that initial cost differences are not a big deal. The real question is how much will it cost to maintain the package when it is run competitively.

Hypotheticly (sp?), engine A will last 30 hours between rebuilds (about 45 race weekends) and will cost $500 to freshen up. However, if the engine is turned up 1000 RPM higher than recomended to run competitively, and it needs a new piston and ring every 4 hours (6 races) at a cost of $160. Now it's looking like $1200 to maintain the same engine over 30 hours. If engine B costs $900 to maintain over 30 hours, it's a better value. (Assuming both engines are competitive.) However, if engine A is more competitive, then it's the better value even though it has higher cost.

Lastly, I should also mention support. Without it, running any motor competitively is going to be difficult, so that is a pretty big deal. I would not be thrilled about shipping a motor all over the country just to keep it fresh.

Scott Haynes · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject:

I have never driven or seen a Sonic so I do not have an opinion about it, but I am very happy with my Rok.

I drive a situp kart and have not had the same problems as the enduro karts. The 13800 rev limiter will help to extend the motor and in turn lower costs. I have seen one apart and can tell you the insides are very nicely done and well thought out. There is plenty of support for this motor from both the people who sell it and here on ekartingnews. We have around ten of these running around here and have seen some very good results with them once tuned correctly. This motor is still new to most and has its quirks like anything new. I just see very good support from the manufacturer and dealers. They were even in the US to do some testing recently.