So much for the masters class

[Bob Francis]

since everybody is making some assumptions on weights. if we take what is said to be the national average of 180 as a given then we could also say that from what i've seen the average kart racer or even indy car driver is probably closer to 160. smaller guys race karts and cars its a fact, now i know there are extremes on both sides you got Paul Tracy (big) and Christiano DiMatta (small) . And yes us north americans are probably bigger than the average Italians. But the chasis we use have been designed for either ICC in shifters or ICA for TAG or 100 cc stuff and the weights there are alot lighter than what we have here. so I believe that we should look at what we're doing, do we really want to tailor TAG or karting in general to the US average?or do we want to set weights for the people that are the norm for the sport. i have seen and i'm sure you have too the junior drivers moving up that have to add massive amounts of weight to get to the senior weight. so we can argue that TAG isn't for them and i say why not. they have junior TAG why wouldn't they move up to senior? i don't think that we should exclude heavy drivers either and the weight break for international and masters should be about 30lbs but i really think the only way to solve this is to go lighter on the base weight and call that class light. then add the weight and call that class heavy. then you combine masters or run it seperate whatever. now i could start throwing out numbers but that not the point, if TAG is going to grow it should be a easy convenient class to participate in that means an easy transition for junior to light to heavy to masters. i think we should take a look at the karts we are racing against this year and really get some idea of whether the classes are adding a lot of lead or are maybe to light now. it's not an easy deal but it can be a very polarizing issue. remember the rules makers are doing what they think is best thing for the sport. lets all mellow out a bit and give this year time, and lets be observant of what we are all dealing with, we are adding 50lbs for International and some are at a disadvantage by being a little heavy for that class. thats the way it is but i think in the average Intern. field you will se more weight added than people that are over the weight. same for masters.
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B.Francis,

[Patrick Hubbell]

Ahhhh, typical karting in Nor-Cal. Nobody is on the same page. Every track has a different age minimum and or weight for just about every class including TaG(Leopard).

At the Atwater IKF drivers meeting Sunday, a Masters class was voted on and should be available for the Stockton IKF. Weight??? age ????? - who knows? Age 35 was mentioned.


Every class' weight and age should be the same from one track to the next. A karter should be able to go to any track in their region and be able to race their class without having to worry about the weight or age requirements. This is another fragmentation of the rules that govern karting.

I know each track wants to and needs to cater to the club member base but it just doesn't make sense to me to have a class that is 375 at one track, 380 at another and 390 at yet another track all for the same class called .........!(National Cup) or (Parilla) or (Leopard) or.......... Then you have the age inconsistency, 35 at track "X", 40 at track "Y" and 45 at track "Z". I think you get the picture. FRAGMENTATION.

Let's all get on the same page. Please!
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Patrick Hubbell

[John Denman]

[Andy Seesemann]

A couple of statistics and then a couple of opinions:

My birel R-31 chassis (no front brakes) with a ROTAX, Unico (read: light) bodywork and about 1/2 tank fuel comes in about 185lbs.

That same chassis with Freeline bodywork and bars is almost 195lbs.

Most CIK classes (read: ICA, ICC, ROTAX, etc) are built around a 75 kilo driver (165lbs). Everyone always talks about how light the CIK weights are....

Driving gear is about 12lbs, not 5 lbs.


So, if you were to take a ROTAX a the baseline, merely because they have been around the longest and have the greater participation numbers at this time.....

Kart: 195
Gear: 12
Driver: 165

TOTAL: 372lbs.

So, build the light class around a 160lb guy, so Rodo and Hollinger can be happy, and come into the scales 2 lbs over.

This equals 365lbs.

Traditionally in karting, the difference between light and heavy classes has been 40lbs, not 30 lbs. Most light Yamaha classes were about 310lbs and the heavies were 350lbs.

So, make the Masters or Heavy class 40 lbs heavier. 40 additional lbs accomodates a 200lb driver. I know a lot of 200lb guys that aren't the least bit fat. Don't build it around me, I weigh 220, I have 20 lbs to lose. But a 200lb 30-something is not rare.


The bottom line is that the more reasonable you make the weights, the more participation you get. In SoCal, at our RMC races, the Masters class gets more guys than Int'l. Why, because there are more people over 35 that weigh over 190 than weigh under 170.

Hollinger can rant about fitness and health, etc, but if a sanctioning body wants entries ($$) then weights need to be at a level that draws the greatest percentage of people.

Personally, I don't care about what the Alphabets (SKUSA/STARS/TaG/WKA) say about weights on a national level, because most 30 something TaG drivers are never going to attend a Pro-level race. If you want to race at the Pro level, you need to weigh 150lbs, that is the way it is. But on the local level, weights need to be more accomodating to a greater number of participants. This means heavier.


Andy
_________________
Andy Seesemann
FULL THROTTLE KARTING
Orange County, CA.
www.fullthrottlekarting.com
Rotax Challenge of the Americas
www.rotaxchallenge.com
WKA District 10 Trustee
www.worldkarting.com
Really Good Guy.

[derek gatellie]

Seem to remember when i started karting 285 was the # Piped Dap rotary
To run rotax masters i have to add 80#,Cant find places to put it so not tried
50# to run with the kids thats still a lot

Cant lift the kart anymore so it stays on the ground all day even with 50#
Does'nt brake that good either (New set of pads per day),
Dont really want to tangle with a 400# kart at 60mph
Ok i know i'm skinny but cant do anything about it
been the same 145# for 45yrs
Its about time for some Lt/Hvy classes

Also remember the chassis are usually designed with a small light driver
so recomended driver seat position is blown away with someone 200#+

[joseph hollinger]

[Mike Walpole]

[erik nystuen]

Wow, what a thread. Seems that everyone is upset that TAG doesn't conform to their ideal.

Well Get over it. Nothing is perfect for everyone, it's just not possible. You can't be 145# and 18 when you are 35+ and pushing 200#. There is something called the laws of physics and time that don't allow for that.

However, I say get all the 35+ something's you can to show up and race. Overwhelm the grid! Crush it with numbers! Pulverize the percentages with mass turnouts of crusty old racer/dreaming, monetarily self supporting, having to work on Monday participants that demand their own class.

If you can do that, well then I think that the Organizers will see the need and make it so. But for now, the numbers just aren't there, so they need to hedge their bets in an effort to keep the ball rolling.

Hey, I'm well past 35, I might not be in the heavy class but I can sympathize and I for one like the camaraderie with all the guys/gals my age running Karts. But I can see the realities, if people don't like the way it is well then, pull up them britches and knuckle down and get involved with the folks that are trying to get it together. Get the word out, get your buddies together, get the numbers and petition changes for next year. Just think if you don't race this year, you can get in lots of practice and maybe you will be the one to beat next year!

Then maybe next year we will get our own series.... Geezer Racing 125 Light (355) and Heavy (395) Non Shifter (weights penalties on Higher HP motors add to the above starting weights....Just as today) OVER 35 only.

Just remember nothing is perfect, and nothing comes that isn't worth waiting for. So be patient and get involved.

Remember this is only my opinion, yours may differ. But that's ok you are entitled to yours too. Remember this is the US of A.

Cheers and hope you all have a great season at the track, whether it's racing or just turning laps.

Erik

[Jose Rodo]

Andy,

Just for your information I'm 175 pounds 6' and 43 years old. That's the reason I want to run masters and not seniors.

When I used to race ICA I would come back to the scales at 350 (ICA is 330). As you can see is 20 pounds over. I don't mind adding or taking weight to make a class. I don't want a class for myself and Hollinger, but adding 55 pounds (405 for masters) is a little too much. This has been my point all along.

I don't think I'm way off the average guy for my age.

See you all at the track at the end of March.

Jose Rodo
Swiss Hutless/Sonik/Vega

[Axel Korn]

I believe the bad culprit is the age factor. If the class was just lite and heavy with no age in the equation, life would be black or white. You drive black or you drive white.

Now add age. Because the class has the "over 35" phrase in it, we have a division. The battle is to move the over 35 more into the white or into the black equation. This will never rest, because of the difference in weight for each individual.

The solution to me seems to be simply black or white. If you are light, you drive the light class and if you are heavy, you drive the heavy class.
Its always fun to try and beat the young guns (if you do) anyway.

I am also 41 years old and weight 162. For me to make the masters class, I have to add at least 45 lbs, which is just too much. I would love to drive masters, but its just too much weight.

Therefore, the young guns are on my hitlist and I will use knowledge, experience, preparation, training and testing to make sure they better be on top of their game.

Axel Korn
#2 / KRT / Hi Rev / Parilla

[Andy Seesemann]

[Peter Wakamatsu]

[Ray Drinkwine]

This is interesting to read since I was being labeled a whiner when they were talking about weights. Alot of the heavy guys were on me because I thought the weights should be lower. Now they raise the weitht and it seems most think it is to heavy! I left the G1 class (I am 41) because I had to add 50lbs of weight and full tank of fuel. Now I have to run the senior class in TAG because there is no way I will make the so called masters weight. I think it has pretty much become light and heavy. This weekend we had our first cascade regional race, I had a trackmagic diablo with the brakes unhooked and a biland thinking I should not have to add much weight (375). Still added 15lbs and full fuel. Had second kart, trackmagic dragon with leopard 20lbs and full fuel (360). I think I am going to buy a new dragon chasiss and sonik. Then I think I'll enter masters, not bother to qualify, start at the back of every race, not add any weight and just go have as much freakin fun as I can (After I see how much crap I get for posting this). What does Howie think of the weights and what does he think they should be. I agree with Bob Francis lower the weight and lets haul ass no matter what class your in!! I feel you guys got exactly what you wanted, heavy karts. If you think your average should be around 370-390 then the light class (senior) should be lightend up! They have pretty much made the heavy (masters) class just for you bigger guys and now your not happy with 390-405. Like I said earlier, I am 41 and there is no way I will ever be able run with guys my own age. You guys should have spoke up and gotten the light class lowered, this would have kept heavy right where you wanted it!!

[Bob Francis]

hey Ray check your PM's. late Bob F.
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B.Francis,