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John Denman
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 4846
Location: United States, Texas, McKinney
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 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| charles pistorio wrote: | john, is it a secret?? the rules posted on here a couple days ago are incomplete
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No it's not a secret.
TAG in the US it all started with:
http://tagracing.net/rules/naks.html
Section 8.1.3 does not have the link to the latest version of the tech spec data.
The original version of the TAG Tech Spec Data Issue 1.0 was turned over to Tom Argy to be updated with the latest motor data.
The latest version containing the remaining versions has not been made generally available yet.
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John Denman
Producer for RTMP
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Andy Seesemann
Expert
Joined: 16 Jul 2001
Posts: 3303
Location: United States, California, Fullerton
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | | Kimi Yasumoto wrote: |
With similar weight limits (330-335 lbs), consider that many of these engines are able (if properly driven) to get VERY close to lap times generated by ICA. So they are quite performing - but with an easier management and longer life. |
That's maybe a little on the optimistic side. Judging from Stars last year
ICA is about three seconds a lap faster (at both Moran and Infinion).
That's a pretty big gap. It would be less if you dropped the Rotax
weight, but not three seconds a lap less. |
Joe,
Weight and tires.
TaG packages won't go faster than an ICA, but strap 35 more lbs on an ICA and make them run hard tires and it would be close.
At STARS, the Rotaxes ran Yokohama tires, which are a solid second slower that YGKs. Vegas are other ICA tires are at least a second faster than YGKs.
TaG motors do have 25% more displacement to work with to overcome these deficits, however.
Andy
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Andy Seesemann
FULL THROTTLE KARTING
Orange County, CA.
www.fullthrottlekarting.com
Rotax Challenge of the Americas
www.rotaxchallenge.com
WKA District 10 Trustee
www.worldkarting.com
Really Good Guy. |
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Patrick Hubbell
Joined: 22 Jul 2001
Posts: 2548
Location: United States, California, San Jose
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: |
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Here we go again. It's motor of the month club. Every time the powers to be decide to allow different brands of an engine style, all run together in a single class, the class dies. It is almost impossible to determine how much weight should be added to one engine or another in a febile attempt to level the playing field. This has been tried before, where are those classes? No where, that is where the new TaG class format will end up. The class will, through frustration, become dominated by the engine that turns out to be the stongest one. What happens to the racers of the other engine types, they quit or sell and move into another class. Over the years I have seen this many times, it just doesn't work. Hello.
The only way this will work is if it's an open class. No rules, do as you wish.
Why do you think you see mostly Leopards in the National Cup(Parilla) class and a few BM's. Those who bought the BM are at a cc disadvantage, 120cc vs 125cc. As this became an abvious disadvantage, the powers to be allow the BM certain privliged modifications to "come up to par" with the Leopard. Political nonsence. It's no different with weight penalties for different engines of the TaG type. It just doesn't work folks. Been there and done that.
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Peter Wakamatsu
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 23
Location: United States, California, Lancaster
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Here we go again. It's motor of the month club. Every time the powers to be decide to allow different brands of an engine style, all run together in a single class, the class dies. |
As a newbie who will hopefully take delivery of my new Arrow kart with a Leopard engine by the end of the week, I think that you are completely wrong. What is wrong with karting is that it has been dominated by guys who think that the only thing is winning races and a $30 trophy.
I'm attracted to karting BECAUSE of the TAG concept--simple to run (self starting--I don't have a crew), simple to own and operate, and no mods allowed. I run time trials with cars right now and am attracted to karts since I can just go down to a track on Saturday and do laps all day long and it will only cost me a few bucks. If I feel like racing then I can do that, but I really don't care who wins.
If I have 4 karts to run with then that's fine with me. To me karting is recreation and that means fun, not competition, since I get that 40 hrs/week at my job. The TAG races that I've attended looked like there were plenty of guys like me there.
I can afford to buy any kart (karts are cheap compared to cars) but that isn't the point. The point is that I don't have the time nor inclination to spend all of my time fiddling around with a tempermental 2-stroke motor just to be within 100th of a second of my competition.
Karting can only benefit from the entry of new folks into its ranks--the guy I bought my kart from seems to like the fact that he got another sales in spite of the fact that I don't care who wins the race. |
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Patrick Hubbell
Joined: 22 Jul 2001
Posts: 2548
Location: United States, California, San Jose
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Wakamatsu wrote: | | Quote: | | Here we go again. It's motor of the month club. Every time the powers to be decide to allow different brands of an engine style, all run together in a single class, the class dies. |
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I think that you are completely wrong. What is wrong with karting is that it has been dominated by guys who think that the only thing is winning races and a $30 trophy. [/quote]
Think what you may, I have been in this sport for 25 years. I have seen many classes come and go. I'm not saying that TaG classes will go away. What I am saying is that when engines of the same type(TaG) but of different manufacture are all grouped into a single class, the dominant motor causes those wit hthe inferior engine to either leave the class, leave the sport or have to shell out another $2000 + for the engine of the month. Then what you have is a all Sonic, Leopard,BM, or ROC class. So, why cause all the grief in the first place.
Why do you think only karting is dominated by people who believe the only important thing is to win and a $30 trophy. Huh? Isn't that the whole idea behind racing and competing. I don't know of any driver or athlete who goes to a race wit hthe attitude "I'm here to lose".
Hey, do what ever makes you happy and floates your boat.
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I'm attracted to karting BECAUSE of the TAG concept--simple to run (self starting--I don't have a crew), simple to own and operate, and no mods allowed. [/quote]
There is more to karting than the lazy man's kart. I am attracted to karting because of the friendships that develop and go on for years after. A large percentage of my social circle is made up of karters. I'm not attracted by something such as a self starting low maintenance kart. There is much more to the sport that attracts the masses.
If I have 4 karts to run with then that's fine with me. To me karting is recreation and that means fun, not competition, since I get that 40 hrs/week at my job. The TAG races that I've attended looked like there were plenty of guys like me there.
[/quote]
I can afford to buy any kart (karts are cheap compared to cars) but that isn't the point. The point is that I don't have the time nor inclination to spend all of my time fiddling around with a tempermental 2-stroke motor just to be within 100th of a second of my competition.[/quote]
You are missing all the fun.
[/quote]
Karting can only benefit from the entry of new folks into its ranks--the guy I bought my kart from seems to like the fact that he got another sales in spite of the fact that I don't care who wins the race.[/quote]
Yes, I agree. this again is my point. I don't want to see a new guy leasve the sport because he bought brand X engine and is getting beat by brand Z because their all run together instead of all like engines in a class.
Welcome to karting.
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Paul Clifton
Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 933
Location: United States, Washington, Kenmore
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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There's a three of us up here in the N.W. that bought/buying ROKs to put in our TAG Enduro class karts. Another of us had an extra Rotax from his sprint kart and is strapping that into his enduro. Another will be buying an Ital design once H&R Block comes up with his $$$$
Which motor? We agonized over that. They all spec out pretty close. We all have our theories, don't we? One of the deciding factors for us enduro dudes was ease of installation. The ROK pipe looked easiest to deal with.
Honestly we don't know which motor will be 'best.' My opinion, niave perhaps, is that with the weights we'll all be pretty close. Then it's the driver.
When I ran MR. Sticky, my Yamaha motor in Sportsman, it was racing with someone that made it fun. Whether it was for second, fourth or sixth.
This is karting, it should be fun.
I have 2 rules when I race.
A) Have FUN.
B) Stay on the track.
For some reason, have had a heck of a lot more A than B.
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Dave Schwabe
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
Posts: 755
Location: United States, Wisconsin, Hartland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Clifton wrote: |
When I ran MR. Sticky, my Yamaha motor in Sportsman... |
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If you're in control, you're not driving fast enough -- Parnelli Jones |
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Peter Wakamatsu
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 23
Location: United States, California, Lancaster
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Huh? Isn't that the whole idea behind racing and competing. I don't know of any driver or athlete who goes to a race wit hthe attitude "I'm here to lose". |
First of all, I'm a very competitive driver out on the course and I'm not the slowest guy out there. But I don't do racing for a living.
I spent hours and hours reading posts on this website and read everything that I could find on TAG, Rotax and everything else before I made my choice to get a Leopard. With all of the arguing about what motor is better or what combination of motor/chassis/weight had more of an advantage, I noticed one topic that was ignored.
And that is THE SKILL OF THE DRIVER! From my experience in racing and time trials in cars, the biggest factor in winning or lap times is the DRIVER. A driver is worths seconds (2-10) a lap at Laguna Seca or Willow Springs, good tires and chassis are worth at least a couple of seconds, and the motor makes the absolute least difference.
Now given that karts have much less power than cars and the power/wt ratio is thus affected more by ones weight, the difference in horsepower or the power curve still is not the biggest determining factor in lap times. Or put it this way, if we put Michael Schumacher in an average kart (pick any class that you want) and put him at the back of the pack, where do you think he'd finish?
Or to you doubting minds another example. I watched the first IROC race that used the Camaros at Riverside (I think it was about 1974). Well those cars were matched as perfectly as possible and the engines were dynoed to within a few horsepower of each other. I watched Al Unser, Foyt, Fittapaldi, Graham Hill, and a bunch of other great drivers fight it out in equal cars. Well at that race there still was a considerable difference between the first place car and the last place car. And this wasn't due differences in the car. And that race series was not dominated by one driver, either.
In other words, the difference between drivers was by far the biggest determining factor in who won or lost and how they placed.
If you want to go faster in your karts, then practice more and get your kart handling right. Worrying about your engine in a TAG class will only make you go slower. Even in the few kart races that I've watched it was pretty obvious that there were significant differences in driver skill and this resulted in several different packs running together for the duration of the race. And this is fine--it's fun. But worrying that engine A or engine B has an uncompetitive advantage just takes away the fun.
I've worked on my car enough at the track and watched others spend all weekend trying to fix broken things or get their car dialed in to know that this gets really old fast. With the TAG engines I think that it will give me the time to focus on more important things like chassis setup and my own driving skills--and that these are the things that make me go faster. You can't do much socializing if your motor won't run or cuts out at high RPM's or runs so poorly that everyone goes blasting right by you!
But I've yet to get to a track and I'm using my experience with cars as a benchmark. Karts just look too fun to be true, in my humble opinion. So "bring them on"! I can't wait!!!! |
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Mike Goebel
Joined: 28 Jul 2001
Posts: 5795
Location: United States, California, Winnetka
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Wakamatsu wrote: | I noticed one topic that was ignored.
And that is THE SKILL OF THE DRIVER! From my experience in racing and time trials in cars, the biggest factor in winning or lap times is the DRIVER. A driver is worths seconds (2-10) a lap at Laguna Seca or Willow Springs, good tires and chassis are worth at least a couple of seconds, and the motor makes the absolute least difference. |
Yeah Patrick when are you finally going to realize this . But the best part will be when you get smoked at the track and you think that for sure it's the other guys motor because he passed you down the straight like you were parked. It's the only answer you could imagine at that time. Then one day you will get the chassis figured out and realize that it was all chassis setup all along.
Mike G. |
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Axel Korn
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 415
Location: United States, California, San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Mike... Did you realize this driving green  or have you changed colors? |
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Mike Goebel
Joined: 28 Jul 2001
Posts: 5795
Location: United States, California, Winnetka
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately I have realized this at Moran, and yes driving green. Maybe I need one of them there different colored ones.
Mike G. |
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Axel Korn
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 415
Location: United States, California, San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike, would'nt hurt to try sometime. |
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Rob Linders
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 725
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Mike,
Why are these guys picking on our OLD green chassis? It was fast at Adams, fast at Grange, we just haven't figured out how to make it fast at Moran yet.
They must be pretty good chassis, or JM racing wouldn't have copied that 1996 Esprit design for his new chassis. |
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Mike Goebel
Joined: 28 Jul 2001
Posts: 5795
Location: United States, California, Winnetka
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Oh man that's the problem mine is a 1995.
Mike G. |
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Miguel Baracho
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 46
Location: United States, Kentucky,
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Unfortunitly TaG is apples and oranges and like Howie mentioned you'll never have a level playing field. There will always be someone on Monday whining that they got beat by horsepower and wanting the weights changed to make them more competitive. |
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