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Bernard Muminovic
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 602
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Randy Pierson
Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 232
Location: United States, Minnesota, Avon
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 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Steve,
Your price for your package is about the only one I have seen that makes sense. It is a nice affordable number.
But while the class had all the good intentions when it started, once all the varied pipes, carbs, fuel systems, cylinders, etc etc got let out of the bag, like every other good idea ( TaG comes to mind), it has escalated out of bounds.
They should have stayed with the old R2 pipe and real spec carb/fuel system. Can't go back though. Right now you have 4hp ( over 10% total power) gap between the ultimate combo and a motor built like the "original" idea put forth. Everyone has to play the game..or be left behind. And anyone who thinks not isn't serious...sorry to say.
Sad to see really..SKUSA= Spec Karts USA
I'll play with my KZ or go find something else to do. If spec moto was really truely like it was intended, I might do that again..but that ship has sailed I'm afraid. |
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Jimmy McNeil
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1458
Location: United States, California, visalia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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So a 4 hundred dollar fuel system is going to keep you from racing stock honda? Like I posted earlier, going on 18 months on my bottom end. If I remember rite it was every 3 or 4 months for my icc, $1000 to $1500 each time. Screw that, if thats what I had to do rite now with this economy, I would be out.
Is the class perfect, no nothing is. No matter what class youre in their will always be something to bitch about.
| Quote: | | Because stock moto is cheaper remember. |
It is cheaper, ive done both
| Quote: | | The engines never break either and last forever |
Like I said, 18 months on a bottom end
| Quote: | | And you can always find parts for one at your local Honda dealer. |
Their are two honda dealers withing 10 minutes from my house, I dont bother going, I just pick up the phone, order parts and their on my door step the next day. Not once have I had trouble getting parts for my honda |
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Randy Pierson
Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 232
Location: United States, Minnesota, Avon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Jimmy...you are the KING kool aid drinker...but I still like you... 
Just freshened up all 6 of my icc's $300 each...If you paid more than that..well..too bad for you.
If you are racing your engine with 18 months on the bottom end, well either your slightly foolish or you are leaving some performance on the table. I feel you are not doing either..you're too good for that.
My point...and you people ( honda phobes) seem to keep missing, Is not the $400 fuel system. It is the constant...yes constant..changes that one must keep upgrading too. Pipes, now pipes that don't crack, fuel systems, cylinders, mounts, the silencer of the month, it never ends. And don't give me the s*^t that it was like that in ICC. You can only make X amount of power from a 30mm carb and a 13cc head. My 9 year old TM just won it's 3rd consecutive points championship road racing, so I won't buy that load.
Anyways, Jimmy...keep running your Honda. You are an excellent driver/set up man, probably one of the top 5 in the whole US which is more than I can ever hope to boast. Keep pounding the laps and win the whole thing this summer, which I think you can do.
But this whole KOOL AID drinking stock moto fest is just that...remember...Speed Kills..race spec moto, live forever ( trade marked) |
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Jimmy McNeil
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1458
Location: United States, California, visalia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the kind words, im going to do my best this summer, hope to get a podium or two.
| Quote: | | well either your slightly foolish or you are leaving some performance on the table |
Trust me im not leaving anything on the table, "foolish"? Ya probably. Going to run it for two more months, the thing just runs to good to change anything.
Funny how you talk about the Honda package changing, Tm k9a, Tm k9b, Tm k9c, Tm kz10. Need I say more |
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Larry Andrews
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 2848
Location: United States, California, SC Mtns
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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The whole 'debate' just cracks me up.
Does it really matter? |
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Riley Will
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 1361
Location: Canada, not USA state,
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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For what it's worth, I just bought a Vortex (KZ) for $300. Needs a piston and a replate ($300). Makes 44hp, fits my kart nicely, is waaaaay cool lookin, and is really fun to drive:)
If I'm racing at a National level, I will spend and conform to whatever class I am going to compete in. For a club or regional scene, rules should be 125cc run what ya brung and all race at 1 weight. Opening things up for good driving competition will bring more of my $600 engines to the grid and thus more entries.
If I wanna be king of 125cc racing in North American, I will get a top level Honda Stock Moto and race against the best racers. I will spend most of my dollars on travel/tires/chassis and give up substantial dollars missing work. A $15k engine is cheap for the service and support to run a National/international program compared to the real costs of going racing at big events. If I want to be the best in Europe, I will race a KZ.
If I just want to enjoy the sport of karting, I will bring my 125cc air pump and you bring yours..... Lets Race:). Hopefully clubs will change their ideas and bring karting back to what it once was.... Full of ideas and innovation, not spec engine package racing that supports only a very few.
Ever wonder what happened to the businesses that built shifter karting in North America? MotoMo, R&D, Hi-Tech, Banke, TrackMagic, PSR, DMC, etc..... There is only one guy left from that era of progress..... SwedeTech. Others have joined in to fight for scraps, but I'm sure if you ask them, they would like to have more options than building spec engines to accommodate manufacturers that give very little back to the sport....
Bring back the diversity... At least to the club/regional level.
_________________
Riley Will
BRC Engineering
rwill@brceng.com
(403) 216-0630 wk.
www.brceng.com |
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Tim Pappas
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 792
Location: Burkina Faso,
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Riley Will wrote: | For what it's worth, I just bought a Vortex (KZ) for $300. Needs a piston and a replate ($300). Makes 44hp, fits my kart nicely, is waaaaay cool lookin, and is really fun to drive:)
If I'm racing at a National level, I will spend and conform to whatever class I am going to compete in. For a club or regional scene, rules should be 125cc run what ya brung and all race at 1 weight. Opening things up for good driving competition will bring more of my $600 engines to the grid and thus more entries.
If I wanna be king of 125cc racing in North American, I will get a top level Honda Stock Moto and race against the best racers. I will spend most of my dollars on travel/tires/chassis and give up substantial dollars missing work. A $15k engine is cheap for the service and support to run a National/international program compared to the real costs of going racing at big events. If I want to be the best in Europe, I will race a KZ.
If I just want to enjoy the sport of karting, I will bring my 125cc air pump and you bring yours..... Lets Race:). Hopefully clubs will change their ideas and bring karting back to what it once was.... Full of ideas and innovation, not spec engine package racing that supports only a very few.
Ever wonder what happened to the businesses that built shifter karting in North America? MotoMo, R&D, Hi-Tech, Banke, TrackMagic, PSR, DMC, etc..... There is only one guy left from that era of progress..... SwedeTech. Others have joined in to fight for scraps, but I'm sure if you ask them, they would like to have more options than building spec engines to accommodate manufacturers that give very little back to the sport....
Bring back the diversity... At least to the club/regional level. |
Yep!  |
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Tyson Henry
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 343
Location: United States, Texas, Arlington
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Randy Pierson wrote: | They should have stayed with the old R2 pipe and real spec carb/fuel system. Can't go back though. Right now you have 4hp ( over 10% total power) gap between the ultimate combo and a motor built like the "original" idea put forth. Everyone has to play the game..or be left behind. And anyone who thinks not isn't serious...sorry to say.
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| Randy Pierson wrote: | | My point...and you people ( honda phobes) seem to keep missing, Is not the $400 fuel system. It is the constant...yes constant..changes that one must keep upgrading too. Pipes, now pipes that don't crack, fuel systems, cylinders, mounts, the silencer of the month, it never ends. |
I just want to point something out here. The difference between "the best" stock moto package and something less cannot be as much as people want to believe. I built my own motor, have a RCE T3 pipe, a 12" M4 silencer, and I use a PWK with floats (no GFS). Now, based on your own thoughts, and I think others, I should have a sub-par setup that will get me left in the dust. But it simply isn't true. Just this past weekend at LSGP I had as much power as anyone else out there (I was hitting 83-87 mph at the end of the straight and an S1 driver told me he was hitting the same). I wasn't even geared correctly either, needed to go up a tooth or two on the axle.
I don't know what kind of speeds Jake French was hitting in his Brian Fisher motor, but I guarantee you it wasn't that much more(if at all). And if he was hitting higher MPH it probably has more to do with his exit corner speed than anything. As far as I can tell, Stock moto power really is pretty equal. Is there going to be some difference between "the best" setup and everything else. Sure.......how much though? I would argue not that much. Would I need that extra bit at the SuperNats? Yeah. That is ANY motor or class though.
In conclusion, I am the best motor builder in the country. |
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Randy Pierson
Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 232
Location: United States, Minnesota, Avon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Riley said it best..as usual.
Tyson,
Watching you guys ( on the web cam) out on the track it is easily understandable that there was not much difference. The bump and ramps would not allow much advantage to a slight hp increase. or ie: it's hard to accelerate when you're a foot in the air.
And while your motor combo may be alright, talk with any builder with a dyno and they will tell you that while a 36hp stock moto is the norm, ones approaching 40 are out there also. That is the sad part and why some of us will not have any part of the kool aid.
Back to what Riley said...  |
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Tyson Henry
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 343
Location: United States, Texas, Arlington
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Randy Pierson wrote: | Riley said it best..as usual.
Tyson,
Watching you guys ( on the web cam) out on the track it is easily understandable that there was not much difference. The bump and ramps would not allow much advantage to a slight hp increase. or ie: it's hard to accelerate when you're a foot in the air.
And while your motor combo may be alright, talk with any builder with a dyno and they will tell you that while a 36hp stock moto is the norm, ones approaching 40 are out there also. That is the sad part and why some of us will not have any part of the kool aid.
Back to what Riley said... |
Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. How did I get to 87 MPH? By accelerating. If I had more power I would have reached a higher top speed. Who cares about the bumps.
Also, the difference between a 36hp stock moto and a 40hp stock moto probably has little to do with a different silencer, pipe and/or fuel delivery system (GFS) and more to do with the right cylinder, "blueprinting", etc. Sorry, but you aren't going to get an 11% increase in power by simply swapping from one part to another when the previous part was known to be pretty good already. Could they all together be worth 1 hp, maybe 2hp? I dont know. But that sounds more reasonable. |
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Randy Pierson
Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 232
Location: United States, Minnesota, Avon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Tyson for offending you .....that wasn't mean't..
You can defend all you want, but the fact is what it is. There is a 11% difference in what WAS the original spec and what is possible now. This isn't my first rodeo.
Have fun with your motor/class. It sounds perfect for you. As long as you are in with a shout against your competitors you are OK. |
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Tyson Henry
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 343
Location: United States, Texas, Arlington
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Randy Pierson wrote: | Sorry Tyson for offending you .....that wasn't mean't..
You can defend all you want, but the fact is what it is. There is a 11% difference in what WAS the original spec and what is possible now. This isn't my first rodeo.
Have fun with your motor/class. It sounds perfect for you. As long as you are in with a shout against your competitors you are OK. |
I didn't take offense to anything you said. Didn't think you were trying to be offensive.
Anyways. I would like to see side by side dyno sessions where they take my setup, for instance, tune for maximum hp and then simply bolt on "the" pipe, "the" silencer and a GFS and tune. Seems like that would be relatively easy for all these motor builders to do right? 4hp.....doubt it. Why can't anyone prove that its these parts that are making the difference? Maybe this info is out there and I am mistaken?
Edit: Let me clarify something. I am not disagreeing that there are 40hp stock motos and 36hp stock motos. Of course there is going to be some disparity between what some people get and others. But that extra 4 hp isn't the bolt ons. Its the other stuff builders are doing, whatever that is.
Last edited by Tyson Henry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Enzo Iadevaia
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 198
Location: United States, New York, Long Island
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Tyson that's not true.. More hp doesn't mean you go faster.. Speed is determined by gearing.. More Hp simply means you get to your top speed faster.
Also two engines could make the same hp and still react differently.
depends on what the hp curve actually looks like..
Let's go back to what Riley said cause that's the truth!!! |
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Tyson Henry
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 343
Location: United States, Texas, Arlington
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Enzo Iadevaia wrote: | Tyson that's not true.. More hp doesn't mean you go faster.. Speed is determined by gearing.. More Hp simply means you get to your top speed faster.
Also two engines could make the same hp and still react differently.
depends on what the hp curve actually looks like..
Let's go back to what Riley said cause that's the truth!!! |
Solid info.....now I get it!
So if I have two exact karts, exact gearing, blah blah blah....and one has an extra 2 hp, and both have enough gear to not max out on the straight, then the one with the extra 2hp isn't going to go faster? |
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