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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2494
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Seesemann wrote: | True Greg, but until the rules disallow people jumping in with both feet, nothing will ever change.
I don't know how it is in the Heartland, but everyone that walks into my shop to buy a kart needs a shifter. (from their perspective) Its hard enough to talk them down into a lowly Rotax/PRD/TaG. They all should start in a 100cc or 4 stroke, but until the rules mandate it, it will never happen.
Its easy to get on here and blame the dealers, importers, manufacturers, etc when this is a hobby, but when the health and security of your children depends on what you sell, you just sell it.
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We are pretty much on the same page Andy, the organizations are the prime offenders but they are in a similar boat to us dealers. They don't want to miss out on a buck in order to stay alive.
Better structure from the orgs would eliminate folks from getting in over their head as easily but the racers themselves will then go outside of the orgs influence much like the 4 cycle community deserted WKA.
_________________
Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
NKN Columnist & Host "Karting News Live"
I AM INDY!!
"When in doubt, gas it. It won't help but it ends the suspense." |
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paul hir
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 345
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Erie
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I love kart racing and hang out with friends. I have run Kt100, Tag, Rotax, and now I am in clone. I see the cloud at the end of the road and its coming quick. What irritate me are all the classes and rule changes every year. I would be nice if the WKA and AKRA didn’t change their mind every year. On top of that you have tracks that almost refuse your business, I am trying to start a league that travels to local tracks and I even mention that I have some clone drivers to run and they don’t want us there…..isn’t karting about racing? Honestly I would like a series that ran briggs, clone, Honda, Kohler, Tecumseh, Predator… I am sure it would be possible to develop a series with fair rules for 4 cycle engines, but there is a divide similar to that of those who run 2 cycle. At the end of the day I have invested significantly lower amount then racing cars. |
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Doug Harden
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Indiana, Nashville
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Seesemann wrote: | True Greg, but until the rules disallow people jumping in with both feet, nothing will ever change.
I don't know how it is in the Heartland, but everyone that walks into my shop to buy a kart needs a shifter. (from their perspective) Its hard enough to talk them down into a lowly Rotax/PRD/TaG. They all should start in a 100cc or 4 stroke, but until the rules mandate it, it will never happen.
Stu and I have had this conversation several times and my answer is always the same. If I don't sell them something that they want, they will just go down the street and buy it from the next guy. (and we have plenty of next guys in SoCal, although they are disappearing  )
And although I may be doing them somewhat a disservice by selling them something that is over their head, I would be doing my wife and children, who I am responsible for feeding and putting a roof over their heads, a much greater disservice.
So what do we do? Turn down the sale and have our loved ones suffer, or just sell the damn thing, knowing that it will be for sale within six months?
Its easy to get on here and blame the dealers, importers, manufacturers, etc when this is a hobby, but when the health and security of your children depends on what you sell, you just sell it.
A |
While I empathise with this issue...the problem for the future of karting is that all of these ego driven drop-outs will never recommend the hobby to anyone else....less they look like a failure. |
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Andy Seesemann
Expert
Joined: 16 Jul 2001
Posts: 3288
Location: United States, California, Fullerton
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Doug Harden wrote: | | Andy Seesemann wrote: | True Greg, but until the rules disallow people jumping in with both feet, nothing will ever change.
I don't know how it is in the Heartland, but everyone that walks into my shop to buy a kart needs a shifter. (from their perspective) Its hard enough to talk them down into a lowly Rotax/PRD/TaG. They all should start in a 100cc or 4 stroke, but until the rules mandate it, it will never happen.
Stu and I have had this conversation several times and my answer is always the same. If I don't sell them something that they want, they will just go down the street and buy it from the next guy. (and we have plenty of next guys in SoCal, although they are disappearing )
And although I may be doing them somewhat a disservice by selling them something that is over their head, I would be doing my wife and children, who I am responsible for feeding and putting a roof over their heads, a much greater disservice.
So what do we do? Turn down the sale and have our loved ones suffer, or just sell the damn thing, knowing that it will be for sale within six months?
Its easy to get on here and blame the dealers, importers, manufacturers, etc when this is a hobby, but when the health and security of your children depends on what you sell, you just sell it.
A |
While I empathise with this issue...the problem for the future of karting is that all of these ego driven drop-outs will never recommend the hobby to anyone else....less they look like a failure. |
Maybe so.
So, whats the solution?
A
_________________
Andy Seesemann
FULL THROTTLE KARTING
Orange County, CA.
www.fullthrottlekarting.com
Rotax Challenge of the Americas
www.rotaxchallenge.com
WKA District 10 Trustee
www.worldkarting.com
Really Good Guy. |
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 137
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Seesemann wrote: | Maybe so.
So, whats the solution?
A |
There is no solution to the ego driven ones. They exist in every sport, and move from sport to sport trying to feed their ego. You are much better off focusing on the ones that want to be there for the love of the sport or the challenge. Find ways to educate and make the task of learning how to be competitive less over whelming. Try to remove the idea that without such and such equipment or lots of money you cannot be competitive. This will be the first place people look as to why they are not winning and helps to push new karters away. If they are not blaming the equipment then they will not feel the need to spend countless dollars on equipment trying to be faster. They will look at themselves and what they can do to improve themselves as a driver.
"Average performers believe their errors were caused by factors outside their control: My opponent got lucky; the task was too hard; I just don't have any natural ability for this. Top performers, by contrast, believe they are responsible for their errors."
- Geoff Colvin in the book Talent is Overrated
As for karts being to powerful for beginners as I stated I do not buy into this. They are no more powerful and scary then someone getting onto a 250 motorcycle for the first time. Yet this is the size bike most people start on as adults getting into motocross. Actually a lot go right to the 450. Sure we can push newcomers to karting to get into a 4 stroke or other slower classes first. Then all we are doing is increasing the cost of karting because now they have to buy one kart drive it for a short time then buy the kart they really want. I think we would be better off letting them get the kart they want then working with them more after the sale to reduce how steep of a learning curve there is.
Last edited by Cory Ross on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Doug Harden
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Indiana, Nashville
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Seesemann wrote: |
Maybe so.
So, whats the solution?
A |
If I knew I'd be a rich man....
Some sort of "try it before you buy it"...i.e. a Ride and Drive program?
No good answers for sure....
Just look at the average racer who'll spend thousands chasing that last 1hp, but won't spend a dime on driving classes, or a real tuner/mechanic....or will p*ss and moan about someone "cheating" instead of admitting they got out-driven. |
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Brian Degulis
Joined: 13 Aug 2012
Posts: 412
Location: United States, Florida,
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Direction of Karting |
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| Greg Wright wrote: | | Cory Ross wrote: | | Stu Hayner wrote: | | Quote: | | "Brian Degulis" Keep in mind that there is a ton of good used equipment for sale at very low prices. The kart we just bought was an 05 that had only run 15 minutes time. It would have easily passed for new. It's a PTK/CRG with Rotax max. Brian |
I wonder how many times we have heard this near identical statement, but never seem to question why.
Could it be that new karters are starting with a too overwhelming engine package? |
It has nothing to do with the engine package. |
Sorry Cory, I totally disagree. Notice that the bulk of the low to nearly zero time karts for sale are TAG, Shifter, Rotax etc.
Simply too much too soon and they then are either discouraged or embarrassed to back up a few steps and admit that they bit off more than they can chew. |
Boy you guys picked a bad example. I was told the original owner of that kart died of an infection shortly after buying it. I know I know it was just to much for me to keep that to myself.
Brian |
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Doug Harden
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Indiana, Nashville
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| paul hir wrote: | | I love kart racing and hang out with friends. I have run Kt100, Tag, Rotax, and now I am in clone. I see the cloud at the end of the road and its coming quick. What irritates me are all the classes and rule changes every year. I would be nice if the WKA and AKRA didn’t change their mind every year.......... |
Ditto... |
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Ken Schilling
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1338
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Cory Ross wrote: | What you say about too much too soon and being embarrassed or discouraged is true. How can someone be scared of a kart with zero hours on it they never drove it. I see a lot more of these low hour sales being more about the drivers lack of instant performance then the kart being to powerful. They will not admit to this and lose interest and blame something other then themselves for the shortcomings. These same people also would not be interested in a slower package since they want to be seen racing the faster classes. It has more to do with protecting ones ego then anything.
The actual expenses of what it takes to race is another reason. You are okay with the initial investment then once you get a kart and look more into it actual costs sky rocket very quickly. Much easier to get out right away.
I have a whole 12 hours on my kart. I am looking at what it is going to take to go race and it is getting very expensive. I am committing to it but it would be very easy to sell the kart and back out right now. |
Hello Cory,
You made some excellent observations above, especially being relatively new to karting.
I would add that someone looking to get into karting should also take as much time as necessary to do their homework on not only the cost of initially getting into the sport and the time necessary... but also the overall cost of racing. Unfortunately this is often overlooked as you yourself comment above. Obviously this isn't a concern to the recreational driver.
In terms of people starting out...
After indoor karting for ~1-1/2 yrs, ~10 years ago I spent a lot of time and energy doing my homework, had long conversations with my wife about the cost & time, and started out in a used HPV-3 chassis/engine setup plus trailer & spares from a driver that was getting out of the sport. I guess you could call my experience a success because I spent 2 yrs in HPV, 2 yrs in TaG and a Spec Honda since. I'm still sprint racing and when I'm no longer competitive or physically able I'll move to road racing.
_________________
Ken Schilling
#21x / S4 / ProKart Challenge (PKC)
SKUSA Data Administrator
Good luck is where preparation and opportunity meet!!!
The opinions I express are mine alone and do not reflect those of any organization of which I am a member. |
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 137
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Ken Schilling wrote: |
Hello Cory,
You made some excellent observations above, especially being relatively new to karting.
I would add that someone looking to get into karting should also take as much time as necessary to do their homework on not only the cost of initially getting into the sport and the time necessary... but also the overall cost of racing. Unfortunately this is often overlooked as you yourself comment above. Obviously this isn't a concern to the recreational driver.
In terms of people starting out...
After indoor karting for ~1-1/2 yrs, ~10 years ago I spent a lot of time and energy doing my homework, had long conversations with my wife about the cost & time, and started out in a used HPV-3 chassis/engine setup plus trailer & spares from a driver that was getting out of the sport. I guess you could call my experience a success because I spent 2 yrs in HPV, 2 yrs in TaG and a Spec Honda since. I'm still sprint racing and when I'm no longer competitive or physically able I'll move to road racing. |
I am new to karting but have been involved at the professional level in many other sports. They all have this similar thing happening. That is half the reason I am saying it has little to do with the engines. People go buy the best equipment they can then when they do not perform they quit. This is not a unique thing to karting.
Doing some homework is what you will see those that have the best chance of staying in the sport doing. It is very important to do some homework and really know what you are getting into. Those that are most likely to quit before they get started are the ones that get into karting as more of an impulse buy then anything else. I am sure those that are salesmen kart shops can tell pretty quickly who will stick with it and who will not. I know when I worked in ski and bike shops it was easy to see who was buying the equipment to ski or ride vs those buying it because it was something cool to do. |
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Ted Hamilton
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 979
Location: United States, North Carolina, King
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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*sigh* Heaven forbid we go karting because it's fun...
A friend with a kart who raced a USAC Silver Crown car got me into karting on a practice day with just one kart and screwing around at a track for the heck of it... Granted, I grew up racing 1/10 mi. asphalt oval, so I had a background and skillset that helped.... but the emphasis was fun.
Same emphasis for the races I've done. I concluded long ago that doing this because it's fun would always trump doing this to win at all costs. Winning IS fun. But if it's the only fun you get out of karting, then you become a driven, bitter soul who's not much fun for anyone to be around, and you'll not help your other competitors because they become threats.
Along that vein....if we simplified the machines, simplified the engine choices, and made it easy for the garage mechanics to do after work or on the weekend they got the kids instead of focusing on the semi-pro drivers headed for stardom, I think the sport would be healthier.
Since we can't please all the people all the time, it makes sense to me to define the rules and experience around the people who'll stick around and who do it for long-term reasons. If it's an attractive hobby at an affordable price point, it's hard to fail?
Have rental RACE karts available at the track....or buddies with extras in the trailer ready to go as loaners... Get rid of trophies and points occasionally and do it "just for fun." Introduce elements of other family fun at the local level like bands, pig roasts, playgrounds, shady areas. Make it easy for families to have fun along with the karter they love... Who knows, come up with good excuses to blow a weekend at the track, and it'll work itself out.
The pro series will always exist because they offer a place for the rich to spend money living a dream (in reality or vicariously), so I'm not sure that the majority of focus should dwell there.
That's just my $0.02 based on what little karting I've done.
(Some ICA at BeaveRun club days, and some practice days, and 1/10mi. oval, and now UAS dirt stuff...)
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Owner, www.hamiltonhelmets.com // UAS Racer #76 // Karting for karting's sake...keep it fun! |
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Alex King
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 927
Location: United States, California, OC
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that some of us are a bit over critical of karting in the US. We need to relax a bit. The economy is still pretty tough, the population pool (for karting) remains shrunk. Having said that, I think that the outlook for Southern California is pretty positive in 2013. ProKart Challenge (regional series) had an impressive turnout earlier this month for its season opner - read that numbers were as good as during the good days back in '05. And LAKC (local club) also had impressive numbers for its season opener last weekend - despite cancellation due to wind damage, they were set for entires of over 200. At Calspeed (local track), during the past 180-days, I have seen more than just a couple of guys getting into karting for the first time...and I have seen existing karters further enhancing their involvement in karting. Based on PKC, LAKC and Calspeed, my observation is that things are looking good and that karting is moving in the right direction. |
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mike clements
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 232
Location: United States, Arizona, San Tan Valley
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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 Ted Hamilton, You are one of the Good Guys. The content of your posts shows this to be the case. Having met you in person, this was always my feeling. It's always good to read your posts.
Mike 
_________________
Began kart racing 1959. Made many friends along the way. |
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Ron Gordon
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Cory Ross wrote: | | Andy Seesemann wrote: | Maybe so.
So, whats the solution?
A |
You are much better off focusing on the ones that want to be there for the love of the sport or the challenge. Find ways to educate and make the task of learning how to be competitive less over whelming. Try to remove the idea that without such and such equipment or lots of money you cannot be competitive. This will be the first place people look as to why they are not winning and helps to push new karters away. If they are not blaming the equipment then they will not feel the need to spend countless dollars on equipment trying to be faster. They will look at themselves and what they can do to improve themselves as a driver.
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Ding, ding, ding....
We have a winner....
More mentoring from others already in the sport to the new ones will help in keeping the numbers up and also spread the word faster than the normal attitude of they are new and in my way...
This happens more than not and it is a shame....
Some can't be helped, because of ego...I have been shot in the foot by a few before as well.. but the majority just need encouragment from the ones they see as experianced or top notch on the track...
I kind word along with some useful help, will usually go a long way in a new persons eyes, then shunning them until they are considered worthy of help.
Having fun in the back of the pack is a lot better than always struggling just to get there...
I may hove only been in karting now for 5 years, and even though I have only won 1 Heat (not race, LOL) in all those years, My family and I have had the best times of our lives and it was all because someone that I never met before, took me and my family under thier wing and it has meant the world to us all.
I am now continuing that type of mentoring (along with the one that helped me) with the kid kart class and thier folks and has made a big differance in many new karters experiances in karting and will continue this for not only the kid karter class but other classes as well. Sort of a Pay-it-forward type of thing that made so much differance in my experiace and I have seen the rewards in this past year, out of 14 races we had 100% participation from each and every kid from the first day they started comming to the track.
It can and does work, it is up to the different organizations to put it into play and if they don't its up to the rest of us to do, to ensure we will always have someone to race against and have fun ourselves.
Ron
_________________
Just another one of the Many OVKA Karter's
and OVKA Kid Kart Director |
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Keith Bridgeman
Joined: 24 Aug 2001
Posts: 1334
Location: United States, Minnesota, Farmington
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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I've been in karting for a long time now and stay in it because I love the racing and the bench racing.
BUT!
I know have a 6 year old. Two years ago he got a PW50 dirtbike and over last year has gotting to the point where maybe he can do his first peewee race on it this year.
Motocross for kids is easy. Tracks everywhere. Tracks for kids to learn on. Plenty of help getting going. I've never motorcrossed only had street bikes but we went the PW50 route because there is so much less activation energy.
For me what happens if he really loves motocross? after a few years and a few injuries I might regret not having him in a kid kart. So thats now the debate. We have a few tracks within about an hour and half.
I will have to say that my kid might be the key to keeping me in karting long term. I'm roadracing a shifter now but most likely wouldn't do a shifter at my small local tracks.
One thing that is very cool and was talked about above. This spring when I get me new Merlin Shifter ready my brother and I will go with Jamie at Franklin motorsports to do a shake down day this spring. Will bring my Son along and Jamie agreed that he would spend time with my son Sam to get him going in a kid kart. Thats a no brainer and if he likes it maybe we go that direction.
If your a shop I would think some test drives or training days at any age would be the way to new business.
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http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/
Merlin / Maxter KZ |
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