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Spencer Uzri
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 798
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 Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: HPD moving forward with the CRF250 kart motor |
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I caught Sean Naslund out at Monroe at the SKC race today, racing - & winning - with a prototype CRF250 engine kit. Apparently, this is the long term direction that Honda is going with in its kart market products. HPD is coming on line with this kart motor option very soon.
Some observations:
*Naslund + kart hit the scales at 415#. For reference, he appears similar to me in terms of general build (I weigh ~160#) & I scale in at ~392 on my K9ES & 1/2 a tank of gas.
* An electric fuel pump is used to feed the EFI, & it was mounted under the seat. Some engine-mounted options have been explored, but the remote mounting option may be the config. for now.
* A hand crank handle was the mechanism of choice for turning over the engine. It's supposedly easy enough to push start. A kick starter could be an option, but I commented that there should have some method of retaining the kick start lever so that it wouldn't inadvertently move & engage the engine while it was running in gear. To me, this approach would make the most sense.
* Apparently, Sean was testing a slipper clutch, although the kit isn't planned to be supplied with one. He told me it shouldn't need one.
* Although I don't know what production yr the engine was based off of, it did appear to have a slight HP & torque advantage over the CR125.
* Unsurprisingly, the 4-stroker was noticeably louder than its 2-stroke counterparts. Although Sean was running an air box at the venue, the kit will supposedly come with a K&N filter.
* Regarding maintenance, Honda rates the top end @ ~40 hrs.
It's worth noting that he lead & won the final race that I witnessed.
Last edited by Spencer Uzri on Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:27 pm, edited 4 times in total |
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2682
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Will be interesting to see how plans for this develop. Hopefully they wont go cold turkey and leave the people with CR125's stuck.
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Steve Buckner
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 839
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Now we know what there REAL intentions are, and I dont think its the cr125. |
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Tim Pappas
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 792
Location: Burkina Faso,
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: |
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We have been running one and it's a nice package. I don't think anyone's intention is to replace 2 strokes. 2 strokes make the most overall sense for karting with their power, weight, and costs. There are people who say they will quit karting before they switch to 4 strokes and that's their choice.
However, I think there is and will be a place for 4 strokes. I think in the Pacific Northwest there is a track where the city or county has outlawed 2 strokes. I know my choice would be to build a 4 stroke. I'm not a big Rotax fan, but if that's all I could race I would do that too. It is not inconceivable that other places might introduce the same restrictions. There are place in CA that you can't have a 2 stroke weed wacker or blower. Don't think karting is so small they wouldn't bother. All it takes is a blanket ban on all 2 strokes. It could happen.
Either way, it's been a fun engine to work with. You would be surpised by how many people who would otherwise think karting is what you do for your kid's birthday party perk up when they see or hear about the 250. It's the same engine they have in their bike in the garage. There is a whole generation of MX'rs that only know 4 strokes and that make this relevant to them. A lot of karters are ex MX guys tired of getting hurt. When they look at a leopard they smirk. They look at the 250 and they are ready to start karting. Just sayin'. It is not a package to save the sport, but it is a cool package that is fun to drive.
Here is a pic of our latest CRF250.
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2682
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Buckner wrote: | | Now we know what there REAL intentions are, and I dont think its the cr125. |
How could there be any doubt? 2smokers don't make marketing or business sense for large companies like Honda.
We just need to make sure it's not to the detriment of karting, I'm sure HPD's intentions are good but there can be unintended consequences sometimes..
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2499
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Projected cost?? I don't know but does anybody want to take a guess, I'm thinking it might just be prohibitive.
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Todd Kageals
Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Posts: 271
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Why can't they build us an engine that has the exhaust coming out the back! Sure does simplify the packaging. Oh well.... |
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Tim Pappas
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 792
Location: Burkina Faso,
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Wright wrote: | | Projected cost?? I don't know but does anybody want to take a guess, I'm thinking it might just be prohibitive. |
It depends on what you call prohibitive. I think it will be at the high end for shifter engines, but they know it won't sell if it is too expensive. I think it will come as a complete kit so it's important to compare it to a complete moto or KZ package, not just the engine.
I don't think it will be for everyone, but it will definitely fill a niche for tracks that can't run 2 strokes, people who want something different, and high end recreational karters. |
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Steve Buckner
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 839
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:38 am Post subject: |
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What I have seen for the complete kit is a little over $8000.00.
Love the sound. I remember when the biland 250 first came out, there was a guy reving the piss out of it in the pits and I said what in the f is that. Walked over and saw Jerry Henderson, he said I am ready to pound your rear bumper. On the kart that is.  Time well tell. |
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Spencer Uzri
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 798
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Tim Pappas wrote: | We have been running one and it's a nice package. I don't think anyone's intention is to replace 2 strokes. 2 strokes make the most overall sense for karting with their power, weight, and costs. There are people who say they will quit karting before they switch to 4 strokes and that's their choice.
However, I think there is and will be a place for 4 strokes. I think in the Pacific Northwest there is a track where the city or county has outlawed 2 strokes. I know my choice would be to build a 4 stroke. I'm not a big Rotax fan, but if that's all I could race I would do that too. It is not inconceivable that other places might introduce the same restrictions. There are place in CA that you can't have a 2 stroke weed wacker or blower. Don't think karting is so small they wouldn't bother. All it takes is a blanket ban on all 2 strokes. It could happen.
Either way, it's been a fun engine to work with. You would be surpised by how many people who would otherwise think karting is what you do for your kid's birthday party perk up when they see or hear about the 250. It's the same engine they have in their bike in the garage. There is a whole generation of MX'rs that only know 4 strokes and that make this relevant to them. A lot of karters are ex MX guys tired of getting hurt. When they look at a leopard they smirk. They look at the 250 and they are ready to start karting. Just sayin'. It is not a package to save the sport, but it is a cool package that is fun to drive.
Here is a pic of our latest CRF250.
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That's the engine.
I live in the PNW & don't know what track you're referring to with regard to a 2-stroke ban. PGP is supposedly in litigation with King Co. regarding their noise permit, but I don't think that's specific to 2-stroke engines. If anything, comparable-output 4 strokes are louder & their noise covers greater range (Sound range & frequency are inversely proportional, & it's obvious whether or not you know the math).
I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating that Honda developed a prototype EFI 2-stroke back in the 90's called the EXP-2, which was cleaner burning than any of its 4-strokes. 4-stroke OHV engines are more profitable than 2's because of all the additional wear parts - or professional tech service - they require the user to pony up for to cover normal maintenance. Parts sales are where the real profits are generated. The % markup on parts is far higher than production assembled models. If you bought every nut, bolt, washer, etc. in the parts fiche that comprised a CRF250 bike & assembled it yourself, it'd cost significantly more than buying it off the showroom.
I know the engine works & has some great features like EFI, but there's no ignoring the overarching profit motive behind the 4-stroke "revolution". |
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Spencer Uzri
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 798
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Todd Kageals wrote: | | Why can't they build us an engine that has the exhaust coming out the back! Sure does simplify the packaging. Oh well.... |
Remember that OHV engines employ a "down draft" style intake. Look at the air filter on the head. (For perspective, the YZF450 has the front intake configuration, & its intake comes straight down from the front of the fuel tank).
A front intake filter/box would be sticking up out the front, partially blocking your R-side view. They could put a low-mount air filter/box with a plenum that curves upward & then down into the head, but it would probably still be obtrusive in the execution, & it would also create power loss & require additional tuning due to how it would affect the power band. |
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Rich Hays
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 239
Location: United States, California, Huntington Beach
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Wright wrote: | | Projected cost?? I don't know but does anybody want to take a guess, I'm thinking it might just be prohibitive. |
I have seen this latest offering from HPD put on a brand new Birel shifter chassis for a big Pro MX racer. Apparently he is building a handfull of karts for him and his homies to play with on his personal track. I was told the engine package complete /without radiator or slipper clutch is in the area of $6k. With the new fuel injection, the motor can be started by hand using the kick starter ... or so I am told. A big improvement from the carbureted CR250R motor karts I have played with in the past.
-rh |
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Ryon Beachner
Advertiser
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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The kits are available, price has been set at $5,999.
Call HPD, ask for Troy McCall.
1 (661) 294 7300
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Last edited by Ryon Beachner on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total |
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Ryan Leger
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| im an ex motocrosser and i know reading this article has made me want to find a class to runs these in as ai have 3 of them sitting in my race trailer right now i love the power of the cr but the crf is a whole other animal |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Todd Kageals wrote: | | Why can't they build us an engine that has the exhaust coming out the back! Sure does simplify the packaging. Oh well.... |
You mean like the Moto3 engine? How deep are your pockets!!!
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