450 superkart

Dean Martin · Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 280

Alex you keep coming back to your basic question and the answers keep waffling on and on about all kinds of crap Shocked

Superkarts primarily use single 250 2 stroke mostly Honda or Gas Gas with some remaining Rotax in ICE. In line twin 2 x 125 in FE or in Australia there are still a lot of v twins from Japan. The V twins were never homologated in europe.
A few people have messed around with 4 strokes most have faded away for all the reasons posted. There have been a few successes a few years back but not against the new breed of in line twins, gas gas or even the latest evolutions of the CR250.

My advise if you are getting in to this - years of time testing and results have determined greyhounds are the most effective animal for circle racing dogs. Therefore dont bother trying to train a Doberman or Great Dane to run with them Wink

_________________
DEAN MARTIN

Johnny West · Joined: 03 May 2002 Posts: 1180

If you want to be certian you get a good racing package for either Single or twin.

Go to one of the larger Superkart events. Like Laguna or Topeka this year. Watch the race, go to the scales after the race, go to the winner of the race you just watched. Take out your check book and buy the package right from under the winners but!. It's expensive. But you KNOW you have a winning package. At least for that day.
So when you race it and do well, great! If not look in the mirror. Wink

Hope you get what your looking for. Then come and race it. Not just look at it in the garage.
_________________
Johnny West/West Racing

paul rees · Joined: 06 May 2007 Posts: 264

So much HIGH ANXIETY over a engine/engines that are supposed to have zero competiveness in the SuperKart World . Dropping oil on track > can be over come with engine containment bags . Over all cost for Kart and engine/engines in SuperKarting < lets be real. It's the top of the food chain for Karting. Thee most expensive level for Gokart racing. Where does less cost and cheaper racing come in to play at this level . Encouragement for turn out should be your only goal . If some one gets in to Superkart Racing and can't stick. That is because they were on margin to begin with . With any level of racing all cost have to be factored in . Not being at work, ether during the week or on week ends, are costs that should be in factored in . Fuel / tires / eats / hotels / fuel for tow rig / eats at track / entry fee's / wear and tear are all negative draw on your wallet. Total that for a week end.

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject:

Riley Will · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject:

The BRC250FE just set a track record against the latest DEA, FPE, and SAFE inline twins in Australia. They can be had for a reasonable price too in the same spec as raced down under.

RS engines are fun and faster the most singles, but the inline engines just plain fit a superkart the best when speaking of twins. RS or a GasGas, I would race the Gas Gas. For the most fun in 4 wheels, I love the exhilaration of driving an inline tandem firing twin! For me it's BRC, but I'm biased:) Any of the current inlines will do you right as long as you are upto the task of maintaining a GP engine. They are tuned for performance, not forgiveness. An inline also has the lowest CG and most all superkart chassis are made with the idea that an inline twin is going on it.

I have a complete BRC powered superkart package available for $12,500.00 that will blow the doors off any single! It isn't my latest stuff, but it is tried and true built with simplicity in mind. I can be upgraded to 2012 engine spec too at a later date.

This isn't an ad for BRC, it is a testimonial that if you are going to compete with a twin, do yourself a favor and get a tandem firing inline disk valve engine from any of the various choices available.

Chris,
Giv'r with the 4 stroke, they are needing some TLC by someone willing to devote specific superkart development to them. As we can all see, it can be done as is proof by MotoGP's Moto3 category. That is the technology that a superkart needs, not MX stuff. Obviously you are on the right path with the flat track stuff, but look at the oiling engineering they have done on the Moto3 engines..... It is done for a reason.

Also, I have a complete Aprilia SXV550 engine package including everything that I would love to see goth a Superkarter home. It was a really fun project with the EFI and inboard starting. Sebastian Domingo was well on his way to making these engines a viable superkart option.....

Cheers all, and remember, it's just GO-KARTS! Smile

_________________
Riley Will
BRC Engineering
rwill@brceng.com
(403) 216-0630 wk.
www.brceng.com

marc croslyn II · Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 23

OK BOYS IVE HAD ENUFF !!!!
I personally dont care about what your running ...
Support your local events and the special events that others are willing to put together...
We have enuff problems putting on events as it is to bring in good numbers for a race as it is !!!
DO YOU WANT TO RACE OR WHAT !!!!!!
This subject is completely negative for all of us and looks bad for the SUPERKARTERS in the US and everywhere else around the globe....
Keep it up and no one will have a place to run .....
MAKE SOMETHING POSITIVE OUT OF THIS !!!!!

Kyle Rice · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:14 am Post subject:

Gerry MacNutt · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:22 am Post subject:

to be clear, that photo of twin RZ twin was not my doing, just found it on the net and didn't really put a close eye to it.

Mark II, one point, I can buy a modern bike roller for $1000 to $1500 all day long. the problem that is negative is people want $3000 plus for 10 to 15 year old 250 rollers, that is negative to the sport IMO.

With the current shape of the sport, they just ain't gold anymore.

paul rees · Joined: 06 May 2007 Posts: 264

Alex Granelli · Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Posts: 15

I would have thought people racing or competing at this level would be slightly more civil. I obviously like superkarts, wish they were more popular, and would like to give them more exposure. This discussion was to try to understand more engine options. If you haven't personally tried it, don't act like you have! People are acting as if it would literally be impossible to run a crf450 or say a cr500, simply because they aren't popular and they are used to seeing one thing.

There is some serious bias going on here from both sides of the pond, who would want to join into something that is already so politically controlled and spreading such misinformation?

Ever ridden a non balanced cr500 compared to a well balanced cr500? HUGE differences!

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject:

Ian Harrison · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject:

Roger Miller · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject:

I actually think it wasn't that uncivil, just a good debate.
And as one that has tried both the CRF450 and the CR250, I can tell you that the CR is a much better platform in terms of operating and maintenance costs, as well as start-up costs -I'll come back to that perhaps.

Part of this discussion has gone in diverging directions as a result of bringing things into it that may not directly apply.

What I mean is, Superkart classes are very well defined as to legal engines.
Formula E (FE) - the twins - generally allow 2 cylinder 250cc 2/ engines and 2 cylinder 500cc 4/ engines.
Intercontinental E (ICE) - singles - generally allow 1 cylinder 250cc 2/ engines and 1 cylinder 500cc 4/ engines
And depending on what rule set, there is the Super ICE class for highly modified 1 cylinder 250cc 2/ engines - example is the GASGAS250K which has a completely revised bore and stroke from the production engine it is based on.

So, in that structure, things like the CR500 and the RZ350 are not found.

Go over to the Laguna Seca thread for the race next week and that is the structure that you will find.

In all of the US sanctioning bodies, and the independent road race clubs, they all have something called Unlimited, and this is where various other packages would run and can be developed, although this is not limited to Superkarts. Any kart chassis configuration is also allowed - laydowns, sprint chassis, whatever.

ICE engines are based on production engines - popular and well developed are the Rotax 257 and the CR250. Then a smattering of YZ250s here and there and the odd 4 stroke.

FE engines have two directions, the GP bike engines, either side by side or "V" configurations, and then the in-line engines - two cylinders, straight up, connected by a set of gears to a rear tranny. Rotax 256 was the initial engine, and then various clones have been produced. The BRC, the PVP, the DEA and others.

The starting point for most of this has been the CIK organization that has rules for Superkarts and homologation for engines. As was mentioned CIK has not homologated all of the engines that are in use for the FE class, particularly in the US.

I think that this is why some comments seem out of line, in that most folks are going to look at this in the context of what the rules allow.

As may have come out, some of the reasons for these limitations are related to the overall safety aspects. Tires and braking systems have their limits. And also think in terms of the broader market. New superkarts are really expensive already, and beefing up the strength and capacity of various systems adds even further costs.

You can research my posts of the past, and what I have said and standby is that Superkarts were on death's door in 2005 in terms of road race clubs having them show up - there would one or two at most at race, until either the Grand Nationals, or the Laguna event, if it was held. A major part of that was the cost of maintaining the Rotax 257s.

We got into Superkarts in 2005, with a 1999 chassis I paid $3K for, and a donated CRF450 that was already on the kart as part of an ongoing experiment. 2 booms and 1.5 years later I switched to the CR program. And as the CR development spread, and the low cost of engines, it has breathed new life into the ICE class on the West Coast and now, if we get them to all show up at even a club event, we can hit almost 20 karts in the class.

In 2005 we competed at Road Atlanta. I will show the four strokers in the field by bolding the names in the Qualifying, and you can look for them in the results.

Qualifying:
Intercontinental E
Pos No. Name Chassis/Engine Best Tm In Lap Best Spd
1. 24 Andy Kiker Anderson/Honda CR 1:31.269 6 100.187
2. 28 Ryen Miller PVP/Honda CRF450 1:33.704 3 97.584
3. 75 Sid Swift Anderson/Honda CR 1:38.263 4 93.056
4. 26 Scott Lowenstine MSR/Honda CR 1:40.481 5 91.002
5. 13 [b[Cory Simpson Nemesis/Honda TRX[/] 1:41.436 4 90.146
6. 21 David Lirette Nemesis/Yamaha YFZ 1:41.765 3 89.854
7. 0 Griff Goad PVP/Rotax 257 1:41.950 2 89.691
8. 52 Ronald Kuhn PVP/Honda TRX 1:46.067 3 86.210
9. 89 George Saldana PVP/Honda TRX No time - -
10. 4 Randy Domikis Anderson/Honda CR No time - -
11. 11 James Ingram PVP/GasGas No time - -
12. 14 Donald Engbretson Kart Pro/Honda 450 No time - -
13. 14f Bobby Butler PVP/Yamaha YFZ No time - -

Prefinal
1 24 Andy Kiker 21 31:56.074 1:32.530 8 98.822
2 28 Ryen Miller 21 32:22.351 26.277 1:34.639 6 96.620
3 14f Bobby Butler 20 32:21.766 --9 Laps-- 1:38.902 16 92.455
4 11 James Ingram 11 15:54.911 --18 Laps-- 1:32.961 10 98.364
5 75 Sid Swift 10 14:49.467 --19 Laps-- 1:36.076 2 95.175
6 26 Scott Lowenstine 9 15:39.133 --20 Laps-- 1:43.476 7 88.368
7 21 David Lirette 9 32:52.596 17:13.463 1:42.753 2 88.990
8 13 Cortney A. Simpson 4 5:10.690 --25 Laps-- 1:36.544 2 94.713
9 00 Griff Goad 4 5:26.791 16.101 1:41.247 2 90.314
10 52 Ronald Kuhn 3 4:30.561 --26 Laps-- 1:46.855 2 85.574
11 89 George Saldana 2 2:10.034 24.511 1:53.998 2 80.212
12 4 Randy Domikis 2 2:25.371 39.848 1:53.065 2 80.874
13 14 Donald Engbretson 0 --:--:--.--- --:--:--.--- - -

FINAL

Class WSK ICE
1 24 Andy Kiker 20 30:07.575 1:31.850 3 99.554
2 79 Cortney A. Simpson 19 29:21.680 --2 Laps-- 1:35.948 9 95.302
3 89 George Saldana 19 29:54.076 32.396 1:35.826 8 95.423
4 14f Bobby Butler 19 30:07.439 45.759 1:38.118 4 93.194
5 28 Ryen Miller 16 23:48.680 --5 Laps-- 1:33.635 14 97.656
6 21 David Lirette 14 22:18.621 --7 Laps-- 1:37.695 14 93.597
7 26 Scott Lowenstine 7 11:14.638 --14 Laps-- 1:43.039 5 88.743
8 6 Scott Fiesler 5 7:38.552 --16 Laps-- 1:33.797 3 97.487
9 00 Griff Goad 4 5:23.063 --17 Laps-- 1:42.210 4 89.463
10 11 James Ingram 1 22.228 --20 Laps-- --:--:--.--- - -
11 14 Donald Engbretson 0 --:--:--.--- --:--:--.--- - -
12 4 Randy Domikis 0 --:--:--.---

So there were a number of 4 strokers at that event, including us, however as you can see by the times, or lack of times, they did not perform well in the class, and some of those names are still in the sport today, and they are not back markers necessarily. Ryen was the only one at the front and consistently about 5 seconds a lap faster than the next closest 4 stroke.
The reason we dropped to 5th in the final after running second all weekend is the loss of the battery for the darned electric fuel pump.
Another complications of running a 4/.

As has been noted in this thread, 4/s have continued to decline to just a couple running. I know there is one fellow who has been about 2 years in working on building a kart with a 4/ and still not on the track.

Anything can be made to work with enough money. 4/s and FEs are great examples of that.

I think most of us are of the mind that there has been plenty developed for the CR, it is cheap, and easy to maintain and tune.

So feel free to experiment in Unlimited with anything exotic, and sure, a CRF or YZF is welcome to come out and play.
The on-track results over the last 5 years would say that a CR or a Rotax is the engine of choice for the pointy end of the grid.

Ian Harrison · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject:

Alex Granelli · Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Posts: 15

I don't think years of experience always lead to the "best" answers of such unique questions and ideas. Nowhere did I ever state about running within the rules. I don't mean any disrespect and understand where people are coming from. If winning was the sole goal under the given rules, I would simply copy what the fastest people are running. This isn't my job, nor only hobby by a long shot. The facts that interest me are that you can get a nice chassis for around $5k and for around $2k or less you can have a number of decent engines when compared to the top forms of racing in this sport. There is obviously huge speed, quality of racing, etc, per dollar when compared to most other forms of racing. I'm sure I'll be needing help and other ideas along this road. Everything is this thread is really a good start. We have access to metal working tools, carbon fiber forming, and electronics. The goal is to build an unrestriced kart in terms of weight, aero, and engine. After all is said and done, the engine will probably be pretty basic, with a lot of focus on aero.