50 or 40mm axel???

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:06 pm Post subject:

Oscar, exactly right, and how many of us have that kind of time and money to test every single part on the kart? I agree most everything stamped OTK is waaaaay over priced, but you can't deny the fact that Tony Kart I believe won more FIA CIK championships than any other manufacturer, so they must have some idea of what works and what doesn't.
They have the resources to design and test, and the right drivers to do so.....

I'm pretty sure they don't take a Douglas Mag wheel, put an OTK sticker on it, and charge $500 a set... Very Happy

CR
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Oscar Aguilera · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1614

i dont know what chassis has the most cik championships..but i would bet tony crg and birel are in the running for that title depending on what championship you are talking about.

yes i know peeps dont have a ton of money...so that is why i take the time to outline my opinion the way that i do.

its funny that if you just studied the seat position that the manufs give for the chassis they sell and the type of tire you are running...they are virtually identical.

it is also funny that most manuf dont use the other guys parts to tune there karts? so when you want help from them.... it is most likely going to be the parts they use,,, test,,, and know to work...that they make.

the problem with what you say chris....not everyone can afford all the axles....is the problem with most kart handling issues....you do need all the tools to tune your kart and in my experience....even if you only race at 1 track.....and run the same compound tires all the time....you will probably need 2 axles for the year if you run in cold to hot weather....and then a third axle (sometimes) if you run in the rain.

so imo there is no magic axle that works all the time the whole year....thats not even opinion...that is fact for me and how i tune the kart.

if the local dealer knows what they are doing...they will suggest the correct axle for you to do well at your home track....but dont get mad if it isnt always the exact axle that comes in your new kart...because the medium axles are only the right axle in some cases/track conditions.

the next problem is the "monkey see...monkey do" mentality of the karter/racer

if gary carlton uses it...it must be good...and i need it because that is the only thing that keeps me from beating gary carlton..

whu??? maybe gary is just faster than you in any kart?

maybe when the lenzo kart lines up with the CRG or Tony and gets beat...the driver in the green or black kart was just better? maybe that driver could win in the lenzo kart?

oh no....and now for the american take.....he has more HP! so now it is not the chassis but the motor....

and now uh oh...that guy has both...so now i need the latest "tech" built motor and the latest chassis to win.

i hear it in rotax...in tag...and i heard it in kt100 back in the day????

way back at one particular race...i was out braking the other drivers with mechanical brakes!!! rear brakes only! against the latest and greatest front braking karts around! i was better that day...thats all. maybe with the hard a$$ tires we were running...the brakes werent as important? or effective as with softer tires??? that was really what i felt...but i still wanted front brakes and hydraulic ones would have been nicer too!

but everyone there thought they needed front brakes.

one time i was really fast and we put a wiesco sticker on my kart....guess what? drivers asked for wiesco pistons...and i was running a stock one!!

go to the races...do your own thing....do the best you can...test when able...make good notes....buy used kart right off the track from a fast guy so you can get the setup to speed up the learning curve...

if you dont want to fall for gimmicks....then just do your own thing and know that sometimes its not the arrow....its the indian?

just my opinion

and i will take a 50mm axle any day...and i dont believe that within the window i tune in on the chassis i run that i will be in a situation that i could not tune with the 50mm

the 40mm falls short for my needs in my classes i run with the tires that we race on in those classes.

we dont need rules to protect us from the gimmicks...we need to be racers and not lemmings when it comes to racing.

racers figure it out....lemmings follow.

there are plenty of things to test on a kart without buying any extra parts. seat position...tire pressure...the whole front end!!! ride width...ride hight....and of course the nut behind the wheel.

but some good news....once you get the right axle and figure it out...you make very subtle changes...and if you travel but use the same tires....you might do some hub changes and tire pressure. but that is about it from my experience.

i had the BS tires down and knew my set ups very well....we switched to MG and now i need to test...the axle will be softer probably one grade...and then maybe a hub change and tire pressure....i might have to dial out some front end input...but that doesnt require buying any parts...just owning a sniper...which i do.

but hey...i went to best buy...and i wanted a flat screen...one was $500 less than the other...and of course i wanted the more expensive one...it was 240 mhz and the cheaper was 120 mhz...

my eyesight is going out? because i really couldnt see the difference...but the price and the salesman said it was better...and it had 3d! i needed 3d....but i dont own 3d movies,,,,,

but guess what??? im looking for 3d movies.....cheap! im going to wait till they go on sale!

you know when they come out with 4d? IDEA! i can trade all my blu rays in that cost a fortune from way back when i had to have those too!

i only post this stuff so i can laugh at how funny i am Very Happy

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject:

Are you a literary major? Laughing

And if you only had one axle and the same set of tires how many possible adjustments are there? You have in and out on front and rear tires that's almost infinite, rear axle height 2 adjustments, front axle height 6 or 8 adjustments? You have akerman adjustments, caster camber, toe, tire pressure, seat location.... then throw in a couple of axles

Any idea how many laps that would take to test all the possibilities in every track conditions?

That's why most people go with a well supported chassis at their venue, "it's doing this, what should I do" and get an answer that puts you in the right direction....

CR
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joseph hollinger · Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject:

Chris Livengood · Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject:

Conveniently the advice from your local shop also says that with those non OTK wheels (and the 120% markup that goes with them) you'll never get the kart to work. Funny how this business model also worked for 50mm axles.

The last time I checked out my cousins sprint car (850hp and 1150lbs) the axle in it was smaller in diameter than the one in my go kart.
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Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject:

Oscar Aguilera · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1614

my posts are too long...nobody actually reads them?

i had to go softer...not stiffer and the 40's in the softness i needed would bend almost when i sat down in the kart...

the equivilent 50 in softness is much more durable.

once i get the front end set up and have the kart basically set up all around....on Friday...the track gets more grip...

if i had long or medium hubs i would switch to a shorter hub.

if i was already on the shortest hubs...i then switch to a softer axle...

everything else stays the same.

if the track still got more griip.

tire pressure goes way down...another axle change and the front end will need more castor/camber dialed in. i might also have to narrow the front end.

at this point if you arent good at reading the track...you might leave the kart alone or make some more changes.

if you know what each component does then you will know what to change to achieve the outcome you desire.

i too race a mini sprint and we never change the axle...we change the compression and rebound on the shocks and we change the torsion bars....just like the 850hp sprint cars do.

and if you compare a kart to a sprint car,,,you will find that the torsion bars and shock changes are a similar match to our axles and hub changes.

and when the dirt changes,,,,you have to change the car up...just like when an asphalt kart track gets more or less grip.

if you race at one track and a kart shop or someone set your kart up...you never travel and you only race during the same type weather and never in the rain.....you will only put gas, change the plug,,,buy tires (and probably have the shop mount them because you may not know how) and keep you kart together.

you will also be the type to regard the motor as making all the difference, because if you are not good at jetting the kart correctly you will find the most time to be made up when the jetting is closer to right than when it may be too rich....or you dont ever really change jets.

if you have needle to play with,,,that new driver is more likely to play with them and stick a motor.

so for the guy that tells me they never change axles....you either never travel....or you have never had to change to a stickier or harder tire. its that simple to me.

ever pay or meet a tuner who didnt make changes to your kart after the first session? and if you did the kart was either easier to be consistent and or you went faster....if not, you didnt need a tuner or you hired the wrong one?

just my opinion

Oscar Aguilera · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1614

and im not trying to be mean or too sarcastic...im trying to help if that is what you guys want...and i am helping Laughing

but i have seen the local guy that wins every week and is track champion,,,get smoked when skusa comes to town.

just because you win doesnt mean you couldnt have gone faster.

you may have left some time on the table with driving, kart set up, or jetting...but you make notes and keep on racing.

and there is still the racing aspect...sometimes the best qualifying set up doesnt race well because where your kart is fast,,,you cant pass? so you might have to compromise set up on one part of the track to achieve better passing opportunity on another part of the track.

sort of like the way they break the track down in f1 to 3 parts...and if there are long straights and then tight turns downforce comes into play?

red bull usually has poor straight line speed but the fastest lap time...while force india has great straight line and is in Q10 mostly?

Dan Haynes · Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:04 am Post subject:

^^^To add to what he said...a few years ago (2007) we were running jr. can on a Kosmic T11 at Beaverun. We were very fast and consistent. We raced against Beasley and Bujdoso and were as fast and sometimes faster than them. We even won a few races against them. Then we went to NCMP for our first Man Cup event. We had been running Vega Blues up to that point because that was the club tire. We left the rest of the setup as it was. We put the YHC's on and were about 44th fast out of about 46 karts. We were over 3 seconds off the front runners and didn't make the field. We came back to club racing and were right back up front again.
It was at that point that we realized we might have to start changing axles, etc.
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Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:18 am Post subject:

Oscar, I think we're saying the same thing???? You have your plan of attack for changing track conditions/setups etc... You came up with that from testing I assume, but your changes, may or may not be the fastest way around the track, there's a million combinations....

Just think of how many ways there are to take bite out of the rear???

CR
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Oscar Aguilera · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1614

oh ok..i might have misunderstood you...but i was mostly answering back to joe.

yea you can address the front or the back for every problem...if the front is too stuck...you can put more grip in the back or take grip out of the front.

so yes there are many changes you can do...but IMO you always want to loosen the kart...not add grip.

so if the front is too stuck i loosen the front..which means geometry change.

im not saying you need all the axles....i dont own all the axles..

but if your kart is doing something wrong you need to know how to address it...and if you are on a certain axle and you need to soften up the rear...you can start with hubs or more aggressively change the axle....if you dont own one and have to buy one...

do you go 2 steps softer? or 1 step softer...and here is the kicker...is the kart shop that carries your brand kart axle at the track?

1 or 2 depends on the hubs i have?

with my CRG 40mm MET axle i had to go softer...so when i bought the CRG 50mm T-4 (which is the same hardness/softness/flex?) i bought 1 extra.

kart came with a medium axle CRG M,,,i bought 2 T-4's 2 T-6's and 2-S20's...i own all 3 size hubs and the birel short magnesium hubs since they are softer than the short CRG's.

and if i owned any other brand kart...i would use CRG or Birel axles because they have more choices for finer tuning and i am use to them.

but that is how i roll? Laughing

stock CRG wheels are the best for me ...i like the Birel wheel/hub set up that you can add 6 lug or 3 lug...that is a nice feature. anything else to me is not needed....or i dont know how to get the most out of them?

low volume wheels? not needed as much if you use nitrogen in your tires...but i do see the potential to keep lap times more consistent????? at least the idea behind them..

the problem in a kart is the tires are not heated up till you get on the track...so there is this time you have to wait for the tires to come in...too much air and they come in sooner and then your lap times fall off...

you want to be fastest lap around 3 to go....not 10 to go!

just my opinion

Ryon Beachner · Advertiser Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 344

Oscar Aguilera · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1614

i feel you ryan! im glad you stuck up for the shops....i get a kick out of the reality of karting that is just so misunderstood.

i too would race F1 if i could afford it...and if they laughed at me for beiing way back there with the HRT's it wouldnt matter a bit!

and i promise...if i win the big lottery,,,i will race an f1 car....even if it is only 1 race or season!!!

even if i dont make the 107%....i will still get to practice!!

hopefully i dont go down to the local ferrari dealer...and blow it up since they stand in the way of my F1 dreams....

then im going to blow up the skusa office since we all know that i need to win at the supernats before i get my F1 seat...and they keep holding there race in vegas just to keep texas entrants at a minimum!

damit...i just put all that together...how stupid of me not to figure this out sooner!

TJ Koyen · Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject:

Chris Livengood · Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:45 am Post subject: