Is Our Sport Broken? - Road Racing - Part 2

Jim McMahon · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:53 am Post subject:

Root problem is that people like to make assumptions and put things into boxes in their mind. Labelling every road course, or sprint for that matter as dangerous is dumb, but done all too often. Safety is pretty subjective anyway, but at the least I think we could all agree on the proximity of solid walls/barriers near the racing surface. There are a lot of sprint tracks that fall into the "dangerous" category here IMO, especially if you look at the CIK\FIA specifications and grading for kart tracks.

Biggest issue is that fact that the divide (Sprint/Road) exists in the first place, but that's pretty deep rooted. In Ireland our national series did both track types partly out of necessity (lack of purpose built kart tracks) but nonetheless we all looked forward to running either/both. There was no sprint vs road race malarky.

Yes the classes are as confusing as hell, overly numerous in numbers and lacking in participants. Thats one of the main reasons I race shifters right now, I'd rather drive a hard race and finish 5th or 6th out of 30 than finish 3rd in a race of 4. But I feel that I might be in the minority over here in the US. I've always gotten the impression over here that the attitude is more about being able to say you finished 3rd at nationals rather than racing a tough race.

Some questions come to mind...
1) Do we grow the sport from national level down or local/regional up
2) What classes to we begin with if consolidating?
3) What can we do to get the laydown entries back to where they should be?

I know im rambling here a little so ill stop...for a while.
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Randy Mckee · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:25 am Post subject:

From another guy on the outside looking in. Well, not entirely outside, I attended a double-header IKF road race this year at Willow Springs (Streets and the Big track). I agree with T Koyen in that most sprinters look at a big track and the first thought is "boring." I was of the same mind, and still am in at least one regard. I'll explain...

I thought the big track at willow would be incredibly boring -- full throttle for probably 90% of the lap and passing is a snore. However, the racing that day was probably the most fun I've had in a kart in years. We had a pack of 4 or 5 angry dudes passing at least 10 times a lap. Lot's of dicing to figure out who would have the best opportunity on the final run to the flag. It was nuts and really fun.

Now, for the other side of the coin: I'm guessing if I had I not been in that feisty pack, it would have been very boring. Let's face it, that track is not hard to drive, and driving by myself on that track doesn't appeal to me. (And I couldn't imagine doing it on something slower than a shifter! 110 mph felt really slow to me on this track)

My thoughts on attracting more people to this side of racing (at least on west coast):
The IKF brand of road racing has no long term appeal. The races don't feel like they build to anything important. They are essentially just like the practice session(s) that precede them – just some “on-track” time. In sprint racing, each session becomes more and more important. We start with practice. Times are posted and people start getting nervous for qualifying. Qualifying can be quite electric and it often sets the tone for your race day. Next session (or 2) are the heat races -- gotta to do well to get yourself a chance in the main. And then WAM, it's the main event and time to GET IT ON!

The road race day has no such buildup. I realize the exact race day structure probably won’t work because it takes longer to get on and off the track each session, but it really needs something similar to generate the race day buzz. Perhaps a quasi-practice/qualy session to set the grid, and then run at least a pre-main and a main. Get rid of separate main events during the day. They aren't exciting and it doesn't feel like a championship.

I'm not going to delve into class structure too much as that's been beat to death (and it applies to sprint and road racing alike). I just want to say the 20 classes does not promote a sport well. Get tough on classes and drop those without solid attendance. People will buy the equipment to move over to a viable class and it makes is so much more exciting to have better competition. Fewer classes may hurt in the short haul, but it is favorable for long-term health of the sport.

Ok, that being said, I do plan to do more road racing this year. Smile

Just gotta get the time and $$ to get to the events.
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Patrick Roth · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject:

joseph hollinger · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject:

Ken Schilling · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 1344

As I stated earlier in this thread I've done sprint racing for the ~10 yrs I've been in karting but I've done 2 road races with NCK at Buttonwillow and both times it was an absolute blast!!!

RR is FAR from boring as it takes your sprint racing skills and adds more strategy with the draft. Obviously, higher speeds are not only more fun but also more challenging as you must be able to trust yourself, your kart and your competitor. RR is also very challenging with carrying much more speed not only on the straights but corners as well and knowing your grip limits is crucial as well as being able to having the kart slide at 100+ mph (in a Spec Honda).

As David Hobbs would say: RR takes some very large "attachments"!!! Laughing

I'm 50 yrs old and my sprint racing days are numbered... When they run out I'll be RR!!!

Here's a short video of Erik Maxfield at Buttonwillow:
http://vimeo.com/5301584
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The opinions I express are mine alone and do not reflect those of any organization of which I am a member.

Randy Mckee · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject:

joseph hollinger · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject:

Buttonwillow is rough but only through the section known as Cotton Corners. On the other hand, you ran Streets with us and that place is way worse (but Hella fun). NCK runs at Buttonwillow 8/25. If that's not a PKC conflict you should come up (you too Ken).
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Todd Bellew · Joined: 26 Jul 2001 Posts: 2902

This seems to be going pretty constructive. So I'll toss my (mostly unwanted) opinion in. BTW these were the things I tried to explain to promoters over 10 years ago. They didn't listen, how did that work out?

AS far as boring. This is what got me in this thread. I've raced on just about every type of karting track there is all across this country. There was only ONE track after my first practice seesion where I thought I may not be able to effectively race the course. Grattan. My second session went way better and I came around. But, that track is far far from boring. Have I been to Long tracks that were boring, yes. Putnam park in a kart is not fun IMO.

The first big thing is that looking at teh USA as a whole for any type of karting is a huge mistake. No single answer works for the whole. The karting world as far as road racing can be broken up into 5 regions. Based on reasonably being able to expect people to travel.

1.) Mid west. losts of tracks, some historic and some reasonable to rent, lots of karters.
2.) CA. decent tracks, some historic, mostly expensive to rent, lots of karters.
3.) the south. Very few tracks and only a few karters.
4.) The north east. Very few tracks and just a few more karters than the south.
5.) Everything between the mississippi and CA is mostly a waste land. Save for TX and OK. Some reasonable to rent tracks and a road racing heritage.

No real solutions or ideas just a certain way to think.

Classes. Too many we know that. Not going to get into what classes because that may be regional. West coast might include an HPV deal the east a kt100. So what. Have as many classes as you want as long as guys are getting REAL track time.
But, here's what less classes gives you. Actual track time. RR always told me about all the track time they got. I went to them and said no. I got one 1/2 hour practice in the morning and one 1/2 hour race maybe 2 hours later or maybe 6 hours later. Yes maybe more overall time than a sprint race. But 1/2 on a RR track is like 7 minutes on a sprint track. That's not real track time. With less classes you can get out maybe 4 times a day or more. Twice as much. I heard about people running in different classes blah blah. Yeah if you wanted three karts or crap tons of lead. Thats not easy or cost effective. And with a shifter there were no "crossover" classes. You should be able to take one kart and drive the sheet out of it.

At the peak of RR for shifters we were getting 70 to 100 karts in ONE race. Was great except that they always ended on lap three with a red flag. The reason was no qualifying. The best recipe for a wreck is fast guys behind slow guys. The start how you sign up or send in an entry has to be gone. With fewer classes you can now mix in a 20 minute quali session and properly sort the field for the start.

Other things than can help. RR is going to haev to go to cheaper tracks. In CA this is probably not possible as the only tracks are big name high dollar track. But in the midwest there are plenty of off the beaten track (nice pun huh) tracks that are great fun and cheap.. Yeah RA and such are big draws either way. Thats fine. But getting stuck at Mid Ohio in march or october was always such a crap shoot on weather not sure it's worth the price. I love that track but they are expensive and not flexible on scheduling for karts. This sort of thing.

Also, only race on saturday and Sunday. And maybe drop a qual session on sunday with starts based on Sat and leave early Sunday. Three day events cost more for every body.

The brakes thing. NOt good. You can't create barriers to sprinters. Plus I'm not sure it makes any sense. Sprint karts are way harder on their brakes. And RR are designed with massive run offs that sprint tracks don't have.

AS far as what racers can do. Quit towing trailers and motorhomes to events. Throw your junk in the back of your truck or suv and pack a tent. Go old school. The fun value goes up so much more when it becomes a camping race adventure. So on some levels people complaining about travel costs just aren't willing to do what it takes to save money.

And finally. the reality is that RR has obviously contracted. I really only see rebuilding happening in several places. Midwest, CA and TX OK. Yes an oddball race like Daytona can be feasiable but until these main regions get back on track none of the others really have a chance.
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Joel Walworth · Joined: 18 Jul 2011 Posts: 4

1) Be inclusive, everybody should have a chance to race.
2) Don't worry about trying to make it more competitive on the cheap. It doesn't matter what you race, somebody will dump an unreasonable amount of money into an effort just to win a tin trophy.
3) Simplify, it is easier for newbies to learn and is cheaper. IE dual brakes.
4) Ditch the bodywork completely for entry level classes. (see simplify) It will also slow them down a bit and make it easier for older Karts to get on the track.

Steve Kilsdonk · Joined: 09 May 2002 Posts: 137

One stumbling block I find when discussing RR with sprint racers is the long wait between practice and racing. That is to say, if I'm only running one race and it's #6, then I have over 3 hours to kill at the track. If I could run two races on the day with the same package, this would be much more tolerable and fun. Plus you instantly double the number of points races for a class in the process.

To do this, you would have to halve the number of classes offered, but this is a necessary step anyway in the opinion of many posters here. To this end, In doing my part towards this, I would combine LO206 and Clone into the stock Animal classes in the aim to encourage participants to upgrade but still be able to race with the cheaper, lower maintenance powerplants.

Richard Thoms · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:38 am Post subject:

Some have mentioned track/series locations.
Checkout www.RacingWhere.com for a good graphical representation of track locations/density for North America with maps for:

Road Racing (13 series / 36 tracks)
Sprint Racing (88 series / 109 tracks)

Login with facebook to tag the tracks that you have run!
I'm sure I don't have them all, let me know what needs to be added.
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Larry Dobbs · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: What's not broken is

Here is an example from the Roadracing thread of when things go well:

Results are up and Points have been updated. We have a small issue with pulling together the heats in the results but I did that by hand for the points.

Also, photos are posted, nearly 1000 - link is on the NCK website

And an article has been posted here on EKN, and will be available from other outlets:

http://www.ekartingnews.com/news_info.php?n=20642

Many thanks to Bev Ban for her support doing the photography and pulling the article together.
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Jim Fry · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject:

Good thread David/EKN. Some good ideas, keep them coming.

I agree w/Todd, "AS far as what racers can do. Quit towing trailers and motorhomes to events. Throw your junk in the back of your truck or suv and pack a tent. Go old school. The fun value goes up so much more when it becomes a camping race adventure. So on some levels people complaining about travel costs just aren't willing to do what it takes to save money."

The increased size of trailers over recent years has been amazing. People put more money in their trailers than we have in our 3 Controlled Spec karts. Then guys find the need to take Thursday off work in addition to Friday to get to the track by 5:00 PM to unload and setup in lieu of driving thru the night after work Thursday.

Now the excuse is we cannot make the next race because of the high cost of gas to pull my big trailer or I am out of vacation time.

Kerry Matthews · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: