Is Our Sport Broken? - Road Racing - Part 2

Bob Wilson · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:17 am Post subject:

Up here in the Northwest, if you were to do a three and three, these are our most well attended classes. I threw in the 125/150 Open because we needed a third and it can encompass a large array of karts but the class itself doesn't draw anything. The Yamaha class is lean as well, but it does have a small following and I know it is regionally popular elsewhere. Our big numbers come from the first four.
sit-up
Stock Honda
World Formula
ICE (250 single cylinder)
laydown
80cc shifter
Yamaha
125/150 Open
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Bob Wilson
SPS Racing

Craig Dori · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:27 am Post subject:

3 and 3 is cool too. But. The reason I did 4 sit up and 2 lay down was based off of recent kart counts on this side (east) of the big river. Laydowns usually only account for about 1/3 of the total entries.
Thanks for the input.....Anyone else??
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Byron Rothenhoefer · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:31 am Post subject:

The reason there will always be so many RR classes is because guys have been running RR for years. A lot of the chassis they run are from different eras. Typically enduro guys stay enduro and sprint chassis guys stay on a sprint chassis. Racers can stay competitive on the same chassis for years. In comparison to sprint racing where the front runners maybe on multiple chassis a year. The newer group of incoming participants are more interested in the modern cik chassis classes. Tag shifter. Thus the decline of enduro racing. For example a WKC DVD from '01 had only 1 cik shifter in the video. Now stock Honda is our biggest class.

It's not up to IKF or WKA to grow the participant level. They do no promotion whatsoever . If the clubs want to survive they'll have to do it themselves. Local car shows, local malls etc.

The number one problem with karting, in general, is nobody knows about it. When I started karting I just happened to see it on SummitPoints schedule while was checking out getting started in SCCA type racing. Lap time per $ you can't beat a kart! Finding out I could race on all the big name tracks had me hooked. MidOhio , Road Atlanta, VIR .

For what it's worth if there were some sprint tracks close to home I'd be there. I'm rather jealous of the guys who moved here from California and tell me they lived w/in an hour of a kart track in every direction. East, north, south, west . There a little disappointed when I tell them you got to go to NJ or South Carolina for a proper track.
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joseph hollinger · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:31 am Post subject:

Why do we have laydowns at all?
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Debbie Kuntze · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:19 am Post subject:

Jim Fry · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:52 am Post subject:

To Joseph & Craig,

There are still a few laydowns in the midwest and east. At the WKA Grand Natls. this year at Mid-Ohio, a quick count on mylaps shows, 231 entries in Saturday's races. 141 were sit-ups and 90 were laydowns. Sunday's races were affected by rain, therefore I did not use. I think based on my experience running the WKA RR series that this 40/60 split is more the norm.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=800631

Jim Fry

Chris Hegar · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:12 am Post subject:

Joe,
Laydowns came form way back when sprint racers with sprint karts moved on from the short tracks to try the long tracks and go faster. As they chased more speed the karts got lower and more streamline. In those days speed was what racing was about not spec like now days. Only a handful of these guys are left with most having the skills to design and build every part on the kart. Kart shops don't push them much do to the efforts required to complete a kart like that let alone drive one. I would like to say that a good handling laydown with nice power is a hell of a lot of fun sometimes even more fun that a good sprinter. If we had a group here I'd be in it up to my neck.
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Ray Chiappe · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:22 am Post subject:

The first time I drove a Laydown, when I got up while moving it felt like I put on the brakes. Although rare the fews times Im on the track in my sprinter behind a laydown I am amazed that I can't catch a draft!

Chris Hegar · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:26 am Post subject:

Going off Bob's list I'll add some info for IKF...

sit-up
Stock Honda.... This class is common across the board with only a fairing change to be near exact. WKA allows different seals and bearings I believe but not a big deal.
World Formula.... This class would be compared to the Animal class in WKA I guess but our runners are on gas and run CIK bodywork.
ICE (250 single cylinder).... This class in IKF is a spec style Euro chassis where I think in WKA you can run laydown as well. More common is the USSK rules.

laydown
80cc shifter.... 80cc Stock Honda, I think this is only an IKF class but probably has rival entry numbers to the Spec 100cc reed class in WKA/KART
Yamaha.... I think this is the same class in WKA/KART but we see like 2 entry average here. Not Sure about Cali though.
125/150 Open.... Catch all for IKF and is where we would run our 125 laydown shifters just like the WKA/KART class. we also allow open motors on alky and situps in this run what ya brung class. Minimal entry's but probably our best bet to compare.

That being said not many of these compared classes can run together for a final award there is just to much difference in speed. Changes made to compete with each other is not really possible for most. Stock Honda, Yamaha, 125/150 open and 250 single are probably about it.
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Craig Dori · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject:

Let's see if this might get some conversation started:

National Sit-Up Classes:
Stock Honda
Stock Leopard
USSK type 250 Super Karts (single engine)
CIK, 4 Hole Can, (or Sportsman?) Yamaha with single brake caliper allowed
(Briggs Class????)

National Laydown Classes:
Yamaha Sportsman
and?????? Controlled Spec?????
Suggestions welcome.

Remember, were just looking for a starting point for National Classes. Please look past the "my kart is not in there" thought process. Looking for a springboard that would eventually include "your kart" too. But for now, a starting point is needed. Until, and I am just guessing here on that #, that at least 6 classes are chosen, there is no way to start any debate on a set of uniform rules for those classes.
By adding more classes at the start, would just muddy the waters.
I am hoping you folks can agree on approx. 6 classes that are already doing well, and then widdle down the other issues on those 6, when comparing across the country.
The classes I stated were just an opinion (with my limited knowledge) on what I see as close enough, and successful enough, to get started. The Yamaha sit-up class was put there because it is an easy entry class, and a great way to expose road racing to more people, without them having to spend the extra$$$.
PLEASE keep your thoughts coming. Thanks

P.S.: Jim, it appears your right, and my math skills suck. Smile

With that said, and again for the ease of getting a starting point, 2 laydown classes seemed like a good place to start. The #'s of sprinters out there that could come run a RR, are huge, versus laydowns though.
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Jim McMahon · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject:

National Sit-Up Classes:
CIK125 Shifter
TAG
USSK type 250 Super Karts (single engine)
CIK, 4 Hole Can, (or Sportsman?) Yamaha with single brake caliper allowed

National Laydown Classes:
Yamaha Sportsman
and?????? Controlled Spec?????

If you want a starting point, IMO it should inclusive. For shifters run them all: Spec Honda (SKUSA\IKF\WKA), Mod, ICC, KZ bring what you have and come race. Standard CIK bodywork, no fancy seat trickery, ie as close to a typical sprint setup. Give Spec Honda a weight break if you need to (the draft helps them a fair bit) but why exclude the other packages? Seems silly to me.
Same with TaG. Make it TaG, not Leopard only.

Can't comment on the yammie stuff but it seems like we would need a WF class too.

JMHO
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Roger Miller · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject:

Just a couple of points on Superkarts - for the sake of clarity only
1. Superkarts are not considered "sit-ups" or what I would more prefer to say "sprint chassis" karts. At least this is true for IKF and the Unlimited and ICE specific classes.
2. Superkarts are not one class. USSK, in their last iteration, made Superkarts essentially all one class, except for age delineations.

My view of how Superkarts should be structured are - there are three classes:
Formula E (FE) - Division 1 - 250cc twin cylinder engines
Intercontinental E (ICE) - Division 2 - 250cc single cylinder engines - product based
Super ICE - GASGAS250K and similar highly modified 250cc single cylinder engines

IKF has maintained the ICE class for many years. WKA has never recognized that class and only has "Unlimited" which is similar to IKF Unlimited, in that it isn't restricted to Superkart style karts, anything can run in that class.

And I will assume I am speaking for most ICE drivers, we do not want to be forced into Unlimited, or with twins and GASGAS powered Superkarts. We have been building our class, and it is working.

Carry on.

Craig Dori · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject:

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Jim McMahon · Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: