 |
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
|
 Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Come on Al . . . . this is a wind-up, right 
| al nunley wrote: |
1. Why in the world would it be different? US to Euro. And do you have a link for that information?
2. All I know is that we tested it and it was slower.
3. On your dyno testing did you have an EGT gauge?
4. Is your compression ratio stock?
5. Do you know what Octane means?
6. And you say it’s cheaper? Sure isn’t here, last time I looked. |
1. 100 and 100LL are universal worldwide standards, covering both the recipe and specification limits of the fuel.
2. Well if that's all you know, it's hardly worth saying 
3. My dyno has 4 x independant channels for logging temperatures via K-type thermocouples, so, for instance, on a twin we log front EGT, Rear EGT and water temp. It also has a sophisticated 4-gas analyser, so that we can log exhaust component gases, AFR and/or Lambda number and it also has an automated weather station that inputs the atmospheric parameters in real time. The eddy current brake allows loading in steps, sweep (wind load speed), constant or can just be used in inertia mode 
4. What on earth do you mean by stock  . I'm talking 2-stroke race engines not standard road machinery. If your asking whether we run the same compression with Avgas that we do with race unleaded, that we do with leaded race fuels, then you obviously don't have an inkling what the word optimisation means. 
5. Yes I certainly do and Avgas has octane numbers of 99.5 (Motor method - lean mixture) and 130 (Supercharge method - rich mixture). So the commonly quoted (MON+RON)/2 to give us the "man in the street" octane rating would be 114.75 Octane. The only differences between Avgas 100 and Avgas 100LL is 1) the colour and 2) the amount of lead 0.56 plays 0.85 grams Pb/Litre
6. I just paid £2.30 per Litre for Avgas LL. Our UK control (spec) race unleaded is £3.00 per Litre
Now I'm really interested to see/hear the objectives, apparatus, methods and results of your own testing.
Mine are quite simple . . . . . Twice MSA British Superkart Champions, Multiple Grand Prix winners and multiple UK Cup winners (twins and singles using unleaded race fuel) . . . . . Once Australian Superkart Champions (using Avgas). European ISS 250 single Superkart Champions (using Euro ELF SK35 unleaded), NZ Championship winners (using Avgas)
I DO like Avgas
Best Regards
Ian 
_________________
Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
www.viper-racinguk.co.uk
sales@viper-racinguk.co.uk
+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Greg Lindahl
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 267
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kinda puts paid to the buttdyno and stop watch!
I like REALITY checks against wishful thinking and opinion... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Greg Lindahl wrote: | Kinda puts paid to the buttdyno and stop watch!
I like REALITY checks against wishful thinking and opinion... |
Hi Greg, perhaps I got a little forthright there!! but that's just me and I too hate sweeping unsupported statements. Hopefully I haven't offended
But, I should just say that nothing puts paid to the buttdyno (great term!!) and stopwatch. A dyno no matter how sophisticated is just another tool in your toolbox. Big and shiny . . . perhaps and a huge saver (and eater actually) of time. Properly used by a competant operator, it does bring with it a huge understanding, ability and capability over time.
The fascination of the 2-stroke engine (to me at any rate), is that you rarely (if ever) answer the question you are asking. You are just working on an interacting set of parameters to arrive at the best solution you can.
But, last time I looked, they didn't fit dynos to racetracks and in the final analagy, that is the only proving ground that matters, it's were I practice the pinnacle of my craft and it's were I find the greatest extremes of enjoyment and despair
Best Regards
Ian
_________________
Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
www.viper-racinguk.co.uk
sales@viper-racinguk.co.uk
+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Racer Johnson
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 116
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I usually just pour the old orange stuff out of my weedeater in the tank for the race weekend...that stuff is seasoned and rips!!!
-Eric |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Racer Johnson
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 116
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
on a more serious note fuel and oil ive found, is just a personal choice, it all depends on head cc, ignition timing, pipe etc. if you talk to 50 kart racers youll hear 50 different fuel oil combos that work the best.....I will say I look inside prob over 100 two strokes a year, all the best looking ones all had a castor related premix in them. mains and rods usually look right out of the package. as far as fuel goes, ive ran probably every leaded race fuel available, have not noticed much difference between them. Ive found anything under about 45 degrees castor starts to get finicky on mixing, on two occasions ive ran vp C12 and then returned to the pits to immediately replace the race fuel with MR8 or the modern equivilent and saw 100-150 more rpm at the end of the longest straight right off the bat. probably telling too much but hell its friday night.
-Eric |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Benson
Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 150
Location: United States, Oregon, Grants pass
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Eric , you could run heating fuel oil and be faster then most of us! Actually, I think the rest of us should get together and MAKE you run it at the ridge!  John. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Greg Lindahl
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 267
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Ian.
I like your documented, empirical data and underlying understanding so much more than heresay/opinion and undocumented/uncontrolled "data".
My "junk gauge" goes to "truth-that makes physics sense" when I read your postings.
Thanks for your generous input to the forum.
Wish you were coming to Laguna so I could meet you and see your equipe.
Best Regards;
Greg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Greg Lindahl
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 267
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
Following is a little piece of information I picked up from a chief engineer that developed a Direct Injection (DI) commercial two stroke engine that has been sold in high volumes to the marine world (also good info on this in "Race Engine Technology" magazine and SAE papers):
Two stroke oil is 66% by volume chemicals to keep the oil mixed in fuel. If this is the case, a DI two stroke will have much lower unburned hydrocarbon emmisions than our engines using carbs and premix. And, a DI engine could make measurably more power. Incoming air would not have fuel vapor taking up ~3 - 9% volume therefore more O molecules are available for combustion. A very small amount of oil in the fuel could lubricate the cylinder. DLC coatings on gudgeon pin/piston boss may allow no lubrication in the small end of the rod. Correctly sized and lubricated plain bearings create less drag than spherical/roller bearings and have a inertia/weight advantage (large end of rod can be much smaller to match the small unlubricated gudgeon pin end). Finish the engine with seals on the bottom plain bearings and lube with a a pressured, recirculating oil system with cooling.
A small improvement in power and pretty substantial reduction in polution results. More $ for sure.
For fun... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Greg
Many thanks for your kind words and there is a chance that I will make Laguna this year, if only as an interested spectator.
However, we are considering bringing over a kart, perhaps an Anderson/BRC FE. Just need a couple of things to slot into place and it would be great to meet you, and all the guys, of course.
Interesting info on DI 2-strokes. I keep looking, but it's all down to time and budget, we always seem perilously short of both
Best Regards
Ian
_________________
Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
www.viper-racinguk.co.uk
sales@viper-racinguk.co.uk
+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doug Newhouse
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 51
Location: United States, Michigan, zeeland
|
| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:04 am Post subject: How much oil |
|
|
Ian,
We have used av gas in other venues with excellent cost / performance results and easy to get.
Thinking about running our twin on it as well.
Did jetting change any from using Elf petrol?
What % oil are you using?
Thanks
Doug |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Doug
Yes we run very different setups in the kart for Euro unleaded race fuel against Avgas 100LL. That's in terms of squish, volume, ignition programme and carb settings.
I'm literally just back from Australia (Phillip Island) and the first round of the Australian National Championships assisting with the running of the Scott Ellis/Wayne Sproston Anderson/Viper SAFE for 2010 Australian Champ, Darren Hossack. Not quite a clean sweep, but 1 x 3rd and 3 x 1sts (and an 18 point lead in the Champonship) is not too shabby (on Avgas 100LL/A747, of course).
Some of the karts, notably the DEA's, some FPE's and some BRC's were running unleaded Euro race fuel.
Doug, The development of the SAFE engine and it's settings is a paid for development programme and subject to confidentiality, so I hope you understand that in this instance I couldn't divulge the information, and it sounds like you've already had good results anyway. So I hope you understand that.
We use 4% oil (25:1) whether using leaded, unleaded, fully synthetic or part castor.
Best Regards
Ian
_________________
Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
www.viper-racinguk.co.uk
sales@viper-racinguk.co.uk
+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeff DeMello
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 2213
Location: United States, Pittsburgh Pa,
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ian
First time I think I've seen Al speechless 
_________________
Jeff DeMello
Emmick F125 Pavesi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sam Zavaglia
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 1189
Location: Australia, Sydney,
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ian Harrison wrote: |
so I hope you understand that in this instance I couldn't divulge the information, and it sounds like you've already had good results anyway. So I hope you understand that.
|
Ian,
I was just wondering if you could tell me the pipe dimensions, ignition settings, head volume, port timings, carb size and settings that your using last weekend with the 100LL?
If you can post the response on here it would be much appreciated.
_________________
www.samzavaglia.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doug Newhouse
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 51
Location: United States, Michigan, zeeland
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
thanks Ian,
Appreciate your reply. our experience has proven that lower compression doesn't use the octane, and av gas has piston cooling chemicals on board. good stuff you got us thinking.
I wasn't asking for your specific jetting i get that. just wondering how different the AV gas was comparatively...ie went up or down or stayed the same, just looking for general direction.
no problem either way, thanks much for all the info you put out here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Doug Newhouse wrote: | thanks Ian,
Appreciate your reply. our experience has proven that lower compression doesn't use the octane, and av gas has piston cooling chemicals on board. good stuff you got us thinking. |
So given what you say above you would probably expect to run a higher comp, perhaps some more ignition advance here and there and a different needle/tube combo in order to get the mixture distribution correct?
It took me 174 dyno runs spread over about 3 weeks with work inbetween each run to arrive at the 2012 setup(s) for the SAFE/Viper engine. This included 3 x total stripdowns to carry out case/disc valve mods along the way. This builds a huge understanding of the engines capabilities and a few different setups to suit different types of circuit. It also means that the modifications will already be a manufactured feature of the 2012 production SAFE engines . . . . so we improve the breed to any potential customers benefit.
In hindsite and after carefully checking the data we didn't use the ultimate setup for Phillip Island and also lost our best rear cylinder due to a new faulty rad cap in quali 1, where 1 flying lap was to put us 4th on the grid for race 1, before an almost total water loss lead to the inevitable "welding" of the rear cylinder. The rained-off practice sessions on Friday meant that we couldn't do a back-to-back track test with the 2 most likely setups, so went with the installed setup, which had more bottom end, but less over-rev. From then on it was all about safety and getting away with as conservative a sub-setup (jetting basically) as we dared.
We also had a significant issue with understeer (push). We reduced this throughout the meeting in small steps, but it was still bad (although much improved), by the last race. That's the trouble with taking an untried kart straight to a high profile meeting.
Of course you never like to tempt fate, but this package will be absolutely awesome by the second round at Queensland Raceway in August.
Best Regards
Ian
_________________
Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
www.viper-racinguk.co.uk
sales@viper-racinguk.co.uk
+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Go Top
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Login to check your private messages
Login
