PAX/RTP and course design

Robbie Nelson · Joined: 26 May 2008 Posts: 131

Our region doesn't have a lot of karts to compete against. So, I've been racing against the PAX/RTP indexed times.

What elements of course design favors karts?

Shawn P. Hill · Joined: 02 Oct 2009 Posts: 120

Anything that would benefit the size of the kart will help on PAX standings. A tight slalom or narrow chicago box would be two things that I think help us on index.
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08 Mike Wilson Chassis - Mod Honda

Scott Boito · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject:

The answer you seek is 'all of them'. No seriously.

If the question is which elements favor karts relative to, say, a wide Pontiac Solstice or similar cars, the answers are narrow or tight gates and any place where the kart can get into top gear. Tight stuff means that wide cars need to brake and often set their driving line non-ideally. Long "straights" (which can include widely-spaces slaloms) in a kart generally means we're up to 6th gear, doing 75 mph while fat cars are hoping to get to 3rd gear and 65 mph - and karts get there in half the time.

Running on single runway courses with few opportunities for really technical elements, the karts should be close to the top of PAX every time. Does that help?
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KM #68 - Haase/Honda kart
BetterOffRacing
Member of the SCCA KAC

Danny Kao · Joined: 17 Nov 2008 Posts: 192

IMO, since the PAX is adjusted generally based on National results, just about every course smaller than the Nats will favor karts.

It's not unusual that 4-5 F125 guys finished in top 10 in PAX out of 200+ in DC, especially when the course has a bunch of slaloms. I like to think us F125 guys are all awesome drivers. (That's all I have to say about that. Wink

)

It would be interesting to see how the 2012 index for F125 (or I should say, KM) would be set because of the West course this year. I normally PAX mid pack at the National and this year I am in the top 20%. I drove like crap the first day and still out pax the STR national champ overall. I think the old F125 PAX definitely favors us in the tighter courses.

When Sam Strano, 7 time National champion and 2nd place in Super Stock would pax 11th in F125, I am betting F125 PAX will change. So maybe next year will be more "even" with other classes..

Tom Reynolds · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:20 pm Post subject:

IMO its more about what hurts and in my experience its long straights that don't start from a very slow speed. In some regions, they will have a straight that takes the kart from 35mph to 70+mph. I noticed with a course has a lot of these, it hurts my PAX results more than anything else.

Larry MacLeod · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject:

Slaloms are good. Quick changes of direction are good. Elements that "thread the needle" and take advantage of the narrow track benefit both karts and Fmods (same track width).

Long sweepers or any "speed maintenance" features are not good for PAX for karts. Expect Miatas, Elises, C-Mods and winged AM and BM to do well on those courses.

Long straights? Those are good for high HP cars like SS, ASP, BSP, etc...

Larry
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F125 #196
Old Birel/ hodgepodge Honda CR125
Lefty Funk
Detroit Region

Dan Cyr · Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 39

+1 to Lefty and Tom.. Karts (especially FJ*) benefit from thread the needle elements that the narrow track and short wheelbase pay huge dividends in. That being said, surface plays a huge role, concrete is good (although bumps are bad) and some asphalt is strangely good. But some surfaces can be horrible!

A sure fire way to ruin F125 chance at pax is to but a bunch of 90+ degree tight sweepers with short straights between them, just enough for a miata to pull from torque peak in 2nd gear out of, followed by a pin turn and 300ft straight Smile

F125 probably does the worst at straights, even worse than sweepers, Sometime drag race a zo6 from 30-65mph, or a GT3, they should win on raw, or come close.

And Im guessing we will stay roughly the same or rise ever so slightly - it was obvious the west course was designed for F125

James Newman · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:39 am Post subject:

I've already heard that FM is getting hosed in PAX this year, I'd expect us to get screwed about the same amount.

Courses that favor F125 are things NOT like Toledo this year. F125 got decimated in pax.
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#35 AS, SCCA WDCR

Tom Reynolds · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:02 am Post subject:

I never believe rumors. In the years I have been trying to guess what Rick will do, its largely been based on obvious needs. This year's national course (west) skewed the results and Rick knows this. I wouldn't worry too much about us, besides, its Paul being 2 seconds or more faster than most of us screwing everything up. Wink

Robbie Nelson · Joined: 26 May 2008 Posts: 131

Dale Seeley · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:59 pm Post subject:

Tom Reynolds · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject:

Spend some time with Paul seeing the effort he puts into prep, no one matches that. Then watch his videos and compare them to your own, its no mystery to me why I get beat badly by him.

This isn't anything new, look at C Stock and I'm not sure there is as much of the car prep thing there as much as its pure driver (but I could be wrong).

Brian Garfield · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:26 pm Post subject:

I agree with most of this...except what Dan said about concrete. The grippier concrete screws us because cars can only gain from grip. We can can have too much grip if we're not careful. That said, a properly tuned chassis might overcome that, but I don't believe so. The high horsepower cars gained a HUGE amount in Toledo, normally they can't put that power down. Case and point? A C6 Z06 which is too much power to use on asphalt goes like stink in Toledo. IMO.

Brian

Larry MacLeod · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject:

Eric Clements · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: