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Jeff DeMello
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 2213
Location: United States, Pittsburgh Pa,
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 Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom Barth wrote: | Jeff Mello wrote:
| Quote: | | I still won't buy a KZ |
That's why karting has a Honda spec shifter class...for those that have ADD :  |
I have told you before I'm done with the Italian over priced parts and maintenance. 3 years with a TaG was enough 
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Jeff DeMello
Emmick F125 Pavesi |
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Chris Hutchinson
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | | Jim McMahon wrote: | Issues like this really make me think stock moto is an intermediary class, rather than the "future" of shifter karting as its often portrayed. The core concept is good but the implementation is really a bunch of band aid fixes. Personally I'd like to see something thats more like a KZ layout, with electric start, spec pipe, spec silencer, spec (analogic) ignition, spec port timing, cyl vol etc, VHSH30 carb, utilizing common (read less expensive) internals (say from a CR125). The K9ES is close, but the cost of getting a crank rebuilt by a builder puts the $hits up people and the weak dollar isnt helping.
It baffles me that there isn't an alternative out there. |
I guess your memory isn't that good.... The whole cost thing with the invasion of ICC's a few years ago, nearly killed the shifter class in the US.
The stock moto (what this thread is about) is what brought it back.
Call Riley Will a call at BRC, search through here he built a set of billet cases with a CR125 bottom, and his own cast cylinders....
Parts cost will always be expensive compared to Honda stuff, it's just the difference in the volume of parts.
There's many choices... You have deep pockets go KZ, you don't go stock Honda, you want Tag, go Rotax???? You want real power and real touchy tuning, build a mod, You want 1/2 a CR, call Riley...
The problem is that there are too many choices. If you look at the CIK model, there's only a few classes, and that's it. There's a International series and a National series, and that's about it. We have WAAAAAYYY too many clubs, with WAAAYYYYY too many classes, and it spreads everything too thin. If we had an east/west, central clubs, with 1/2 dozen classes, everybody would be almost the same stuff, dealers could stock a few different motors and in VOLUME, so the prices would be much better...
I know, it will never happen.... We're greedy American's and we love choices...
CR |
I believe this is the thread that Chris is referring to. It's called HONDA ICC
http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=78043
A very interesting concept |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Yup, there it is, $1500CDN for a set of billet cases, you have to order 50 sets of them. Open up your checkbook!!!!
CR
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2682
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm aware of Riley's project with the billet cases. I was thinking more along the lines of castings, of course that requires volume too.
Riley's 150 seems to have garnered interest, maybe thats the way to go with a 6 speed. Decent power without having to go crazy on compression or port timing.
If Rotax applied their Max magic to shifters it might not be a bad thing. I'm not talking about DD2 either. Rotax made some great aircooled shifter motors back in the day, so it wouldn't be unchartered territory for them
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Live in the midwest and have a TaG, Shifter, KPV, KT100, Animal\LO206, enduro or superkart?
Click here to join the karting festival at Blackhawk, IL June 1st-2nd. |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim McMahon wrote: | I'm aware of Riley's project with the billet cases. I was thinking more along the lines of castings, of course that requires volume too.
If Rotax applied their Max magic to shifters it might not be a bad thing. I'm not talking about DD2 either. Rotax made some great aircooled shifter motors back in the day, so it wouldn't be unchartered territory for them |
What difference would cast casing have? They still have to be engineered, and actually more expensive to do a short run, because you have to have molds made.
You don't need a rotax anything, there's a TM K9ES sitting on shelf right now, go buy one, and have your friends buy one, that's how a new class gets going.
You want cheap one off motors, never going to happen.
CR
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East Coast Super Kart Series
"This is how we roll!"
www.eastcoastsuperkart.webs.com
CR2 Motorsports
"Home of Cobalt Superkarts"
www.CR2MotorSports.webs.com |
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Spencer Uzri
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 798
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | | Jim McMahon wrote: | I'm aware of Riley's project with the billet cases. I was thinking more along the lines of castings, of course that requires volume too.
If Rotax applied their Max magic to shifters it might not be a bad thing. I'm not talking about DD2 either. Rotax made some great aircooled shifter motors back in the day, so it wouldn't be unchartered territory for them |
What difference would cast casing have? They still have to be engineered, and actually more expensive to do a short run, because you have to have molds made.
You don't need a rotax anything, there's a TM K9ES sitting on shelf right now, go buy one, and have your friends buy one, that's how a new class gets going.
You want cheap one off motors, never going to happen.
CR |
+1
TaG electronics to the contrary, the wiring on the TaG-ICC is simple-stupid & reliable. I've heard of exactly zero problems with them, starter, battery, or otherwise. They run competitively with the moto engines in Gold Cup, the engines being about even in terms of performance, with CR having the HP edge, & K9ES has the better torque/power curve. Maintenance intervals are similar; the differences are academic. |
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Larry Andrews
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 2848
Location: United States, California, SC Mtns
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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If the exhaust manifold is the problem, just sand down the metal part towards the front so that the pipe can move a lil bit more. A taper running about 0.010" at the front should do fine, and the o-rings should still seal fine.
<shrug> Can't imagine why nobody's suggested the simplest approach yet.
Last edited by Larry Andrews on Wed May 25, 2011 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2682
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | ]What difference would cast casing have? They still have to be engineered, and actually more expensive to do a short run, because you have to have molds made.
You don't need a rotax anything, there's a TM K9ES sitting on shelf right now, go buy one, and have your friends buy one, that's how a new class gets going.
You want cheap one off motors, never going to happen.
CR |
You're right Chris, I dont "need" Rotax anything. Very observant of you. However I never suggested that I did. You know as well as I do when something gets into decent production numbers that cast is generally more cost efficient than billet so quit the BS and hyperbole, maybe deflate the ego for a few posts yeah?
Do you honestly think that having a shifter class with a concept along the lines of Rotax Max is a bad idea?
I don't want "cheap" one off motors, and I never said I did. But I think the sport would benefit from a more complete package that is designed with karting application as the core purpose. Something that is convienient, cost efficient, offers parity and has a ruleset that works well from international down to local\club level. IMO stock moto meets the second and third of these. TaG ICC meets nearly all, but the (percieved) cost of spares might put people off.
You said there are too many choices, I disagree. How many of them meet the criteria above? NONE!
As for "going out with friends and starting a class". There's a group of about 8-10 of us from the MN area that run ICC/KZ motors in the CES series. We used to run Mod and Stock Honda, and I kid you not, the TCO has been lower with the KZs. Of course purchase prices being on the floor helps but nonetheless the KZs have been good to us.
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Live in the midwest and have a TaG, Shifter, KPV, KT100, Animal\LO206, enduro or superkart?
Click here to join the karting festival at Blackhawk, IL June 1st-2nd. |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 5:58 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Jim McMahon"[/quote]
You're right Chris, I dont "need" Rotax anything. Very observant of you. However I never suggested that I did. You know as well as I do when something gets into decent production numbers that cast is generally more cost efficient than billet so quit the BS and hyperbole, maybe deflate the ego for a few posts yeah?
Do you honestly think that having a shifter class with a concept along the lines of Rotax Max is a bad idea?
I don't want "cheap" one off motors, and I never said I did. But I think the sport would benefit from a more complete package that is designed with karting application as the core purpose. Something that is convienient, cost efficient, offers parity and has a ruleset that works well from international down to local\club level. IMO stock moto meets the second and third of these. TaG ICC meets nearly all, but the (percieved) cost of spares might put people off.
You said there are too many choices, I disagree. How many of them meet the criteria above? NONE!
As for "going out with friends and starting a class". There's a group of about 8-10 of us from the MN area that run ICC/KZ motors in the CES series. We used to run Mod and Stock Honda, and I kid you not, the TCO has been lower with the KZs. Of course purchase prices being on the floor helps but nonetheless the KZs have been good to us.[/quote]
"convenient, cost efficient, offers parity and has a ruleset that works well from international down to local\club level."
Honda's aren't convenient? How many Honda dealers are there worldwide vs kart shops?
You need to talk Riley, if it was more cost effective to do a run with cast cases, I'm sure he would done it by now. I'm sure there's a break even point with the molds... You might want to ask him what that numbers is..
"TaG ICC meets nearly all, but the (percieved) cost of spares might put people off."
I don't think it's perception at all, there's not a class to run an ES in, that it would be competitive right now. The K9ES is cheaper than a K9C!
How did the Tag classes start? SSC put up the money and brought in the Rotax Tag's. That was probably the biggest surge in karting in history!
You touched on several different things: A Tag ICC, and a CR bottom end ICC. Both these things are here now, and even an Tag ICC with a CR bottom end if you want.
I'm not trying to bust your chops, just pointing out what your asking for is out there.
Tom Barth and other shops put K9ES' on the shelf, so that's money out of their pockets. Riley designed and built billet cases out of his pocket.
All somebody has to do is buy them!!!
CR
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East Coast Super Kart Series
"This is how we roll!"
www.eastcoastsuperkart.webs.com
CR2 Motorsports
"Home of Cobalt Superkarts"
www.CR2MotorSports.webs.com |
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2682
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Sure, lots of Honda dealers out there, but the ones that actually know about or stock the CR125 "kit" are still in the minority.
My point on convenience was more to do with having an electric starter and avoiding cracked exhaust pipes, pumparound carbs, octomom fuel setups, silencer "trickery", faffing with CDI boxes and burnt arms/suits. Personally I could care less about the starter, but I acknowledge that it's desirable for some people. I took the starter off my MC.
Regardless of what the reality is, I still think the theres a stigma over here that associates terms like ICC, KZ, KF and "motors from italy" with words like expensive, fiddly and overpriced. That's just how it is and from that perspective it makes something like "TaG ICC" hard to sell.
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Live in the midwest and have a TaG, Shifter, KPV, KT100, Animal\LO206, enduro or superkart?
Click here to join the karting festival at Blackhawk, IL June 1st-2nd. |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Jim McMahon wrote: | Sure, lots of Honda dealers out there, but the ones that actually know about or stock the CR125 "kit" are still in the minority.
My point on convenience was more to do with having an electric starter and avoiding cracked exhaust pipes, pumparound carbs, octomom fuel setups, silencer "trickery", faffing with CDI boxes and burnt arms/suits. Personally I could care less about the starter, but I acknowledge that it's desirable for some people. I took the starter off my MC.
Regardless of what the reality is, I still think the theres a stigma over here that associates terms like ICC, KZ, KF and "motors from italy" with words like expensive, fiddly and overpriced. That's just how it is and from that perspective it makes something like "TaG ICC" hard to sell. |
How many dealers know squat about ICC's? I had on ongoing problem with the IMPORTER for Vortex, he couldn't tell what piston went in one of my customer's engines!!!
Now I'm lost on what your point was??? There is a TM K9ES that is exactly what you state, what's the issue?
I'm sorry for the digression, it's another ICC vs. Moto again, it is what it is, some people like ICC's, some like motos...
CR
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East Coast Super Kart Series
"This is how we roll!"
www.eastcoastsuperkart.webs.com
CR2 Motorsports
"Home of Cobalt Superkarts"
www.CR2MotorSports.webs.com |
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Tom Barth
Joined: 22 Oct 2001
Posts: 1380
Location: United States, Michigan, Waterford
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff, you get what you pay for.
I do not buy the over priced high maintenance knock on the ICC! Comparing the ICC to the moto has to be done with a level playing field.
I hear the moto chant....that it is cheaper and runs forever. Take a look at the posts in shifter karts and tech talk. most are moto problems.
A well set up KZ will run with zero problems and out perform the moto.
Racing is going to cost money. Let's not dilute real racing with five & dime substitutes.
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Tom Barth
http://www.greenflagkarting.com/
Power is good...more power is better... too much power is just right! |
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Mike Goebel
Joined: 28 Jul 2001
Posts: 5765
Location: United States, California, Winnetka
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom Barth wrote: | | most are moto problems. |
At PKC there have been no problems wth any ICC engines. 
Mike G. |
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Jeff DeMello
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 2213
Location: United States, Pittsburgh Pa,
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom Barth wrote: | Jeff, you get what you pay for.
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And you know what I had for a TaG motor
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Jeff DeMello
Emmick F125 Pavesi |
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Tom Barth
Joined: 22 Oct 2001
Posts: 1380
Location: United States, Michigan, Waterford
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| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I give up. please tell me.
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Tom Barth
http://www.greenflagkarting.com/
Power is good...more power is better... too much power is just right! |
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