Billett Flywheel for clone????

Dominic Greco · Joined: 17 Dec 2009 Posts: 224

Duplicate, my fault...
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John Matthews · Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject:

paul hir · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:24 am Post subject:

John,

I have read several posts on here and on 4cycle.com about clones v.s. Briggs Lo206, I am still not sure what to make of it. I took a clone on a trade so I decided to race that. I have two tracks each are about 2 hours away Clone track has a lot of money tide up into it, really nice track can store my kart at the track which is important to me. While the other is smaller cheaper and runs the Briggs Lo206, No storage place for the kart. Briggs track you can run the stock Gen3 with PVL ignition and can win, I am sure that 3 years from now it will be the same. The field can range for Briggs but fairly small it seems that the Clone class is growing fast and the track supports them and sells them.. My problem is that if I keep the clone engine as is, when will it be a boat anchor? Everything I read on this site and 4cycle.com seems to have the same outcome that eventually all have over $600 tide up into a $99 engine for safety or new rules.

John Matthews · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:30 am Post subject:

Hi Paul,

I admit it's pretty confusing right now with different people telling you different things. That's why I wish tracks would just run all the entry level 4 stroke karts together. Obviously I think billet flywheels should be mandatory for clones, and I believe the LO206 is a better overall value for new karters. But the reality is both classes are meant for folks who are just starting out and have more important things to learn about the sport than how to get that last .1hp from their motor.

They will run similar lap times so I don't see the problem with letting folks run together regardless of what engine they choose. Tracks really need to work together to make sure people can race everywhere in their region since that's what'll make them better and more likely to stick with the sport. The bigger problem IMHO is tracks letting ace teams dominate the beginner classes so actual beginners get frustrated by not being able to keep up with driving skill or money. I've said it many times, make the trophy out of lead, paint it gold, and make the winner bolt it on their kart. That's the only practical way I can think of to keep the cherry pickers out....

Whatever you decide to do I'm sure you'll have fun in karting. It might be worth making a phone call to the track officials though and suggest they combine low power classes to make it more fun for the racers. That way everybody wins.

Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

ron christian · Joined: 09 Mar 2009 Posts: 293

paul hir · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:48 am Post subject:

ron christian · Joined: 09 Mar 2009 Posts: 293

Hi Paul.. its easy when you edit these posts to keep them short as possible to seem brash.. I agree run them together AS LONG AS THEY PERFORM THE SAME..

i LOVED RACING MY bRIGGS FLATHEADS,, BUT i DONT HAVE THAT KIND OF $$ ANYMORE..

hOPEFULLY THEY WILL not ALLOW ANY PORTING OF THE HEADS ETC TO HELP KEPP THE AVERAGE RACER IN THE SAME FIELD..

caps accident I dont type well

The flywheel seems a logical choice to me just to keep everone safe,,I would like the rod to be an option just because its not a performance advantage and as your motor wears out it can be removed as the flywheel.. not mandatory just optional

Leave the claim rules where they are, it wont help at the $$ races but I think it does a good job at the club tracks

SO if My post seemed offensive in any way COMPLETE ACCIDENT, I enjoy the back and forth and find I learn a lot, I sometimes even change me opinion when someone makes a good point..ron

Michael Milanovich · Joined: 19 Mar 2010 Posts: 156

Ron,

What I question is what the rules might be in 3 years, don't forget they have changed the pipe but think about the cost consquences if they change the tire and clutch rule. These are all rules that the consumers like myself have no control over. I agree with john let all the entry level 4 cycle karts Lo206 and Clone run together.[/quote]

Paul the muffler itself was changed because the original muffler was not able to hold up. In 5 races last year I replaced 3 or 4 of them and at 3.95 a piece easily would have paid for the RLV piece. I honestly dont think Beaverun would mind allowing the lo206 to run with us, however it would be scored seperately. I read about the prices of 500 to 1000 dollar BSP clone engines and I really want to see where people are getting these figures? My first race last year I was about 10 seconds off, the more and more I worked on setup that 10 second difference dropped very quickly. You can go out and buy a 1000 dollar clone but does that mean your going to go out and win every race? No. Now if it came down to running an animal, flathead, or lo206 I would however I am not going to drive 2 hours when I can race a clone at a track 30 minutes away. We have no animals at our local track at all. The only time you see them there is when they come in to practice for the gold cup. As far as cherrypicking goes, i think it depends on the track and how deep your wallets are. At Beaverun, we have very limited entries in our Senior Yamaha class. So it is either clone or TAG and our TAG class is filled with drivers that can win on the national level or international level. Not trying to start an arguement about which is better but shouldnt it be about just being there racing and supporting the track instead of I run a clone or animal etc?

John Matthews · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:47 am Post subject:

Hi Ron,

You make my point exactly, driving and set-up skill is what's needed to win any race. I've seen folks get into fist fights because they think someone is cheating when in reality their kid just got out driven Embarassed

You've built what you feel is a perfect clone for $300 cash plus your time and expertise as a machinist/engine builder. I'm assuming that you value your time even if it's a hobby and you probably won't be doing anywhere near as much work on somebody else's engine for free.

Like it or not some racers will always be willing to pay extra for a little more power. It's the reason you didn't just pull an engine out of the box and race it, and it's always going to happen in racing regardless of what platform you choose. Some people will be able to use their own skills instead of money and others will prefer to pay for services rendered. That's what I love about open class racing, I miss the old days when the fastest guys also built their own stuff often on a shoestring and they weren't afraid to blow something up in pursuit of more power Laughing

What we have now is a situation where some of the folks promoting the clone are just doing what they think is best for the sport and others are actually PO'ed that Briggs took their flathead away and want to do anything they can to undermine Briggs products. This is based on conversations I've had with people who are involved, not just speculation. If someone who's promoting Box Stock is really interested in the original goals of the class they would welcome anything that gets more racers out on track, not just their own engine and rules IMHO.

So, I commend you for building your own engine and helping others to get out on track. That's what club racing should be about Very Happy

But, the simple reality is that your Box Stock clone will have no value to someone like me after you've worn it out so you have 100% sunk cost not counting the pieces you've put onto the engine to make it reliable and safe. The LO206 is worth nearly half it's purchase price to almost any engine builder out there completely worn out. The Box Stock clone doesn't have an established ladder like the Briggs Animal so unless you happen to be racing at a track that has it's own rules you'll be changing engines if you want to move up or go regional/national racing. The Box Stock clone has a large number of different manufacturers making different parts with different measurements so it will be necessary to completely tear down your engine when you win to ensure parity with the rules. We've seen how claimer rules work in other threads on here, guys with big bucks will take chances being legal to gain an advantage without concern for costs. Contrast this with a purpose built kart racing engine that has standardized parts, controlled pop-up, and a seal on the bottom end so tech only has to worry about the head and carb (and not really that either since the rev-limiter makes any advantage there minimal).

I've heard the arguments about cost way too many times to even take them seriously. If $300 is going to keep you from starting to race you'll be in for a rude awakening when you actually get your kart out on track and start trying to be competitive. Crying or Very sad

Racing costs money, and winning costs more. The purpose of and engine like the LO206 IMHO is to allow a family to get their kid started racing without the feeling that they'll never be able to compete without dropping big bucks for a motor. Clones can claim that but until all the different tracks out there commit to running the same rules, and the class gets to the point where everyone is running "builder prepared" motors that are rigorously teched the claim will ring hollow to many who started out thinking they could go racing with a $100 motor.

So, sorry for the long rant but I've had this discussion with many, many people over the years I've been building 4 strokes. I can't tell you how many dad's I've had to tell that cheating with their kid's motor doesn't teach them anything about sportsmanship or integrity. These were the values I learned when I started racing karts back in the 1970's with my dad. And yes we had purpose built kart motors back then, I moved up from the KT100 to a Komet K55 because I wasn't competitive in my weight class, an option I would have with the LO206 but not a clone.

My opinions are based on building, rebuilding, and making better all of the motors I talk about. My perspective is shaded by talking to folks all over the country who are confused by their local rules and wonder where all the fun they were promised is after a year of trying to keep up with changing rules, cherry picking teams, and indifferent or outright biased track officials.

You don't have to race the LO206 if you don't want to but please don't put down folks who decide it's the best option for them.

LETS GO RACING!!!!

Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

ron christian · Joined: 09 Mar 2009 Posts: 293

Good post John

paul hir · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:07 am Post subject:

Ron I think this is a great debate and I am learning alot I am not against the Clone, in fact I plan on running it this year. From what I read on other sites this is a very civil debate.

Mike, I don't disagree with you about distance and how that plays a role in your decision, I agree when I ran in one tag race I was in way above my head and skill level. I am just hoping that I am able to just to pull the cord on the engine race for a few years and have fun. Regarding the $600 I am not talking about intial cost I am talking about over the next 3 years how much money are you going to sink into a engine that has no resale value (I do understand that racing cost money, but you can't ignore that fact) Seems like the long term cost of a briggs is less expensive.

I agree with John that sinking money into the clone really isn't worth it so I guess the best thing to do is run it till it dies. John I do like the Briggs Lo206 but what I saw locally happen is that Lo206 Gen 1-6 are different enough where you have to have the new gen to compete. One of the local tracks to me decided to buy a bunch of Gen 3's set them all equal and run a series, in which you saw the best drivers win, the problem became someone from the outside bringing in a Gen 4-6. The whole point is to encourage people to race, but how do you equalize? or should you be expected to sell the Gen 3 and get 4,5,6 gen?

Michael Milanovich · Joined: 19 Mar 2010 Posts: 156

Paul, I see with what you are coming from 100 percent. The resale for the actual engine itself is very difficult. however, if your just buying the engine and not the bolt on parts then in reality your not spending very much. i actually hope someone claims my engine this year for the simple reason I will make money on the whole deal. After dealing with the whole 4cycle.com you need to run a clone or a briggs, it almost makes me want to just sell all of my karting stuff and find a new hobby.

John Matthews · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:50 am Post subject:

Intelligent people can disagree and still act respectfully Very Happy

I love it when one of these threads is full of people who actually have experience or are trying to learn what might work for them. I participate on both boards and sometimes threads get bogged down in stuff that really doesn't help anyone.

Don't get me wrong, if a local club near me was running the clone I'd gladly race one myself as long as billet flywheels were required. More karts on track is always more fun and it's encouraging to see the sport starting to grow again after many years of stagnation.