RR Grands ICE ISSue

[Gary Kozuma2]

Tim,

As a IC/E hopeful, I'm writing this thought to the IKF. I need to side with the idea that the organizer is organizing. Here's what I think the term organizaing means:

1. Managing the rules. Since managing is a never ending activity with the sole purpose of making the operation better while preventing problems, I believe there should be a party in charge of rules. I can only hope that that person or persons who are calling the shots are not biased and have the good intentions of a successful class in mind. What I mean by that is the quickest way to chase people away is to mess up the rules. I'm not so interested in the how it gets done as much as I'm interested in it getting done right. As the Portand races shows, DQ'ing that many people should be telling IKF something and not the other way around.

2. Marketing. I know this is a sensitive area, because it just means time, time and more time. And with 250's, who do you market it to? Someone's going to have to figure out that market and build the momentum. Overall, it would seem that IKF markets to young kids with bench racer dads. That's the only conculsion I can come to with all the 100cc and 4 stoke stuff, and that the shifter classes are only there for those who don't what to run 100cc's for the rest of their lives.

3. Community. As a club, I don't have a sense of community with the 250's with IKF. Perhaps this goes back to the class manager who would or in my mind should have an on-going dialog with as many competitors, sponsors and manufacturers as possible.

I would go on, but I gotta get some stuff done, and you all know where I'm coming from anyway.

Gary K.

[Debbie Kuntze]

I whole heartedly agree with JR that IKF needs to become proactive instead of reactive. This seems to be my "soap box" of the year. But the problem lies in what TIm said. How can IKF fix something if they don't know it's broke? No one has addressed these issues about the IC/E engine rules, etc. before, so all assumed they were understood. Apparently not.

I constantly urge SCK members to write to IKF and be vocal, show up to meetings and let their concerns be heard. IKF is a members organization, the 9 on the baord are voted in to make decisions and ruling on the members' behalf, but they can not do it alone. They need your support and input to be successful.

Currently, only 7 responses have been recived by the IKF office in regards to the proposals. Only one has been forwarded to the RR committee. That's pretty sad considering there is a lot of gripping and complaining going on in these forums.

Maybe IKF should have an offical "forum monitor" to get a "feel" of the racer. Which one of you out there want the job?

[John Clasen]

Debbie, my guess is that the apathy you are describing is not without reason. With the experience many of us have had with the IKF board (especially me) can you blame us for not having the desire to completely waste what little free time we have left in a day. When the board decides to rethink their position on the Proposal System, maybe they'll get some help again, until then I am afraid it is futile. At least remove all the gearbox classes from that unnecessary burden.
Just my 2 cents.
Regards, J.R.

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: John R. Clasen ]

[deborah d-harpur]

You have got to remember that there are both good and bad sides to the proposal system.

I for one, am in favor of keeping the proposal system, or some other "safeguard" system, because for years the IKF had the "MOTOR OF THE MONTH" club. You would go out, buy a new motor that was allowed and find out 2 months later your engine was now either antiquated or no longer allowed. Many many spur of the moment rules were made, and broken, wihch affected many members directly on the track and also in the pocketbook.

Until someone comes up with a better plan to safeguard the misuse of power by the board on tech issues, I for one will continue to support the current system. I can't think of any other way to insure the members get input, and that they are not slammed with new rules every month. Maybe someone else can, and if they do, I will be more than happy to consider changing my posiition. Perhaps someone will come up with one at the Sattle meeting. It would be great to hear from the members.

Remember that this is my personal opinion, and not those of any other bod member, or the IKF.

I sure would appreciate only positive feedback, not hate mail

[Ardy Sadeghi]

But the problem lies in what Tim said. How can IKF fix something if they don't know it's broke?

Debbie and Tim you both raise a valid point. I know I've talked to both of you once or twice in the past and have heard a lot of good comments about you both. Please keep in mind, most karters just want to go out race and have fun. To hit their head against the walls (ikf, wka, etc) may not appear to be very appealing ;-) . And if there are some who wish to raise concerns and questions, they may be considered as trying to stir the pot!

The ICE and F/E classes are experiencing a noticeable growth around the country. Just as much as the 125 class was growing in the early 90s in most places, we too are growing. One very notable difference to consider is, the 125s are mostly sprint racers. However, there is no denying the impact they have had on enduro racing around the country in recent years. On the other hand, the growth of the ICE and F/E classes will only impact enduro racing directly. A point that we hope will not be ignored.

Now that there may be an interest in reviewing the IKF rules, I hope there will be an opportunity to formulate rules for these classes that will be uniform all around the country. Regardless of any one organization and / or club or region. As has been suggested, many times, past, present, uniform set of rules only benefit EVERYONE involved with karting.

1-it would be a great potential to have the opportunity for anyone of our karters to be able to race any where around the country
under the same set of rules.

2-It'll also provide a greater opportunity
for the hosting clubs to have greater number of participants involved.

3-It'll even make it easier to buy and sell equipment all around the country and not to have to make changes in order to make the equipment legal under any given regional set of rules.

We are experiencing increasing number of ICE and F/E guys around the mid-west. There are more than a few of us who would like to see a uniform set of rules governing our classes around the country. We have recently started a mailing list to discuss issues relating to this topic, as well as general technical discussions. Tim was kind enough to send me a copy of the IKF rules. We have other copies from FIA/CIK as well as other countries (AUS). We hope there would be an opportunity to work with other ICE & F/E karters as well as various clubs and organizations such that we can formulate uniform rules for these two classes. Look forward to hearing from all.

[Benn Herr@Work]

Ardy,
While it might seem nice to have one set of rules for all 250-class racing nationwide, I don't think it will be possible. Organizational pride, personal ego, geographic differences, and racer base would make this impractical if not just plain impossible.

What I would like to see is a way find out what somebody else's rules are and how they are interpreted. After all, if I go play in your backyard, I play by your rules - as long as I know what they are! Sure we want to make sure nobody gets "Localed" by an over zealous official or a noise ordinance that everybody knows about but you for example. But if I have to put on metal lock nuts or safety wire something I normally don't, it's a lot easier to do it at home in my own garage than in the morning before tech at a strange track. And if I don't do it at home and expect those items to slide by inspection - it's my own fault.

Now getting rid of some of the old rules that don't apply any more will be worthwhile. The restriction on overall height for example, not many racers carry their kart to the track in the back of a station wagon anymore and if your kart is taller it's more drag, hardly an advantage. Do we need an overall height rule in any class of karting?

The club I run with (SCK) has several versions of 250 classes. Unlimited, 250ICE, 250 Sprint, and 250Limited. The first two are IKF classes and follow IKF rules. The last two are local classes and are designed partly to allow people to run on both days and partly to allow for other types of karts to run. If you came out for somebody else's race and you knew what to expect this could make the weekend more worthwhile. A way to find out the classes other groups are running and the interpretations of the rules at their level would go a long way towards the common set of rules we want. Can a listing of this be done? Web accessible? Pictures, notes, diagrams?

Thanks for your time,
Benn Herr
Kart Design
Chandler, Az.

[Stephen Buckley]

All,

Wouldn't it be simple to just adopt the CIK/FIA rules for IC/E and/or F/E??? It that a possibility or do we have to do the "reinvent the wheel thing" again?

S

[Stephen Buckley]

I just quickly scanned the CIK-FIA rules, and besides the various bodywork types, F/E and IC/E karts must have at least 3 beadlocks on either side of the wheel. Interesting!

The kart bodywork can be of the standard "Swift Cup" type (wing, nose, sidepods) or full-bodied.

[Benn Herr@Work]

Don't get me wrong! I'm all for a more common set of rules. I just don't want to have everybody beat their heads against the wall doing it! We need to work on the important parts first. The headrest issue, bodywork spacing, programmable ignition boxes, etc..

In reality I don't think we're that far from each other on what we have for rules. It's the interpretation at the local level that causes most of the problems. That's why some kind of a reference guide could be helpful, especially while the 250 classes are expanding. A tech man that's used to dealing with 100cc karts and what's important to them might need some more input as to what's important to a 250.

As for using CIK/FIA, they would be great to use as a starting point but I wouldn't want tie our rules to their political situations anymore than they would to ours. When created the IKFs 250 ICE rules were close to CIK/FIAs at the time and are certainly in need of some updating. That's do that. Stay away from the homologated chassis, engine, and bodywork though. Doing this means the end of a kart like Bill Rileys Zip with the custom bodywork, the Nemesis kart made in Texas, or the ATC Honda 250 engine with the counter-balance. Not homologated - not legal. I also read somewhere that the CIK/FIA is going to 5 speeds only in 2003 or 2004. If this is true how would it affect all the 257s out there?

CIK/FIA rules are good, to learn from, to adapt, to see future directions. But not to blindly follow. Lets learn from them and see if we can do better - not operate at least one year behind.

Off my soapbox for the moment,

Benn Herr
Kart Design
Chandler, Az.

[John Clasen]

Deborah H, my reply is that the board should only manage the organization, as is the normal function of a board of directors. It is the committees who should draft legislation and implement it. They are the ones closest to the racers and are therefore most capable of cogent rules making. This is not rocket science my love.

Thanx, J.R.

[John Clasen]

Replys to BennH and then Stephen:

Benn, With the current excitement & momentum recently generated in the 250 IC/E & F/E divisions in this country, I just don't see many obstacles to achieveing our goal of an National set of rules. Trying to do that in 125 has proven very difficult, but most of the people involved in this effort have know each other too long to still have huge egos.
I really believe we are gonna get this done.

Stephen, I have been reading the FIA/CIK rules recently in hope of finding some existing verbiage to make the job a little easier. Frankly, there is not much there that isn't already in the 2000 IKF rules. We just need to clear up some of the ambiguity. I also have a copy of the Australian rules which goes into much more detail than the actual FIA rules. Within about two weeks I will post a draft of the rules we will recommend on our site at www.worldsuperkarts.com
In the mean time keep those suggestions coming our way.
J.R.

[Deborah Davidson-Harpur]

My secret boyfriend JR Clausen has a point.

It's not rocket science for sure.

Consider this... The current committee that gives recommendations to the IKF BOD is currently:

IKF Road Race Committee:
Jack Lehmann - Chairman
Gary Robinson
Debbie Kuntze
Chas Lemmon
Don Holmboe

None of these people competed in ICE at this years GN event. The only one that I know of that drives that type of kart is Chas Lemmon.

Perhaps a sub-group of ICE drivers should step up and write up how they would like to see their classes run, meet with the Road Race Committee and then give it to the IKF BOD. Or if all the drivers that are IKF members that took the time to post on this site actually typed it on paper and sent it in to IKF, directly, I think the BOD members would get the clue. As JR (my not-so-secret anymore boyfriend) says "it's not rocket science my dear".

edited to fix my typo's

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Deborah Davidson-Harpur ]

[Debbie Kuntze]

JR-I agree wholeheartedly with you that the board should organize and the committees draft and implement! It is the committees out there in the trenches so to speak.

I will be honest with all, I am a bit brain damaged from banging my head against the forces that be. I take notes from what the racers on these forums say, even print some out. After all you are the voice of karting. I don't race a shifter, but they are part of my organization (SCK and IKF)and I want the racers who come out to an SCK event to enjoy themselves. We can't hold races if the racers don't show up to support the club. I want to race and would like to race more often, so I do what I can to make it happen. I goad the rest of you into coming to meetings or writing letters only becasue backup is helpful, more the merrier, squeakiest wheel gets the grease, easy to ignore one, hard to ignore plenty, etc.

JR I would love to see what rules you have forming up for 250, etc, and see what I can do from the committee stand point of IKF.(Yes, I know you have been there and been burned by them, I guess I want to pick up your baton and take off from where you got dumped.)

So, that's where I come from. I want to race and I need to make sure racers show up and are happy.

Debbie K

[Ardy Sadeghi]

While it might seem nice to have one set of rules for all 250-class racing nationwide, I don't think it will be possible.
Organizational pride, personal ego, eographic differences, and racer base would make this impractical if not just plain impossible.

Benn,

You raise a valid point. However, ICE and E classes are some what new or non-existance in some areas. i.e. wka doesn't even have such classes and are now scrambling to put together (prosposal) rules for it. There is a window of opportunity to work on creating A uniform set of rules. and yes it is not easy, but need not be impossible. It is all up to us if we want our classes to continue expanding. It seems the 125 class GENERALLY is somewhat uniform! There is no reason why ICe and E can not have uniform rules?

As Stephen (The X-ice) suggested we could use FIA-CIK, or better yet a sub-set if these rules. These classes are very small and relatively new, atleast compared to many other enduro classes in US. We do have an opportunity to make a difference. Furthermore, as has been suggested by many, these classes are not your typical entry level classes (more open). so at this point in time, we may not need to go too crazy with the rules.

and last.. what surprises me is, why is there no interest in having uniform rules in just this one country? why is there no interest in having the opportunity to race others from other parts of the country? and why is it so important for every one to have their own class, their own set of rules, and their own trophy? afterall, isn't this sport about racing/competing against the best of them all? besides having fun!

my friend, I understand your comment about being impossible. been around this wonderfull sport long enough to see why. Just as much as a race who believes he/she has never a chance of winning and just hangs around to finish, we can look at it that way, or work at improving our abilities and make it to the front. neither is impossible. it is simply in our hands.

if we care about our sport, just ask many of your local enduro clubs, how well would they have survived just in the last 4-5 years, if we didn't have the influs of sprint 125s comming to our local enduro club events?

thanks for your comments.

[Stephen Buckley]

I have to disagree, in part, with Mr. Herr. There can be common classes across any territory, it just takes people with a common goal and common sense. If the rest of the world can do it, why can't we? Are Americans that inept? I don't think so. Any club can have their own "special" classes,that's a given, however, they can offer the "world standard" classes as well, that is to say: Formulae E and IC/E, as well 150 Open. I'm referring to longcourse classes, not sprint crossovers.
S