B-S V 2, where's this at right now? Is it doable?

Greg Nelson · Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 1712

Any more development/news on the V-2 Vanguard B-S engine.
Anyone considering a class for this monster?
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Benn Herr · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1579

Been there, tried that.

I figure mine was 28 to 30 hp. Pretty mild.
The biggest problem is how big the engine is - it's tall and wide!
On mine I left the stock flywheel and had a battery for the electric start. About a 85 pound package. It was like a giant TAG motor but with torque!
You can get a lot of power out of these engines but the life gets kind of short and they are still BIG.
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Ted Hamilton · Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject:

There's been a lot of development on the racing lawnmower side (don't laugh...too hard.) Check out Ryker racing out of Canada. We have one racing with us on dirt in the NC UAS region, and it's a nice package. Heavy though. I'd put mine on a diet and use an external starter.
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Benn Herr · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1579

The starter was actually pretty light, it's the battery that was some of the weight but the big player was that manhole cover of a flywheel! Crying or Very sad

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John Matthews · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:57 am Post subject:

Road racing is the only place where you could actually use this type of engine but as Ben says weight is a MAJOR issue.

A more reasonable alternative for karts is the Briggs Model 20 (305)

They make from 25 to 40 hp built up and gobs of torque. There is also a great aftermarket for them on the dirt oval side. The tough thing though with any modified 4 cycle is building it to last while still making good power. On the dirt oval side where you have fairly short heats on 1/10 mile ovals it's not such an issue but when you start running hour long enduro races it's a little harder to keep things together. Not saying that it can't be done but for what it costs to build these engines you can get a Rotax that'll last much longer.

What would be really cool though is if Briggs built a World Formula like engine based off the new Vanguard/305. That could make a reasonable amount of power, and stand a chance of being adopted as a class by the national orgs. If sprint karting was ever able to get a sanctioning body like what oval racing has in the UAS

http://www.unlimitedallstars.org/

then maybe open class builders could have some fun. As it stands now it really looks like stock moto is the best high HP class going for sprints and road racing. World Formula and Animal / Ltd. Mod Animal are great classes for sprints and road racing with good rules and pretty good participation.

I hate to say it but I don't believe the big V-Twins have a future in karting unless people start building larger frame karts with full suspension (which really wouldn't be karts anyway).

JMHO,
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Greg Nelson · Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 1712

I just remember about a year ago they had built a 70-75hp V-2 that they brought to a track and it just ripped it up. I thought it was a development motor for a bandelero type dirt car that they dropped into a kart.
Whats the deal with the 305? is it just a bigger (305cc?) WF motor?
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John Matthews · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:51 am Post subject:

Maybe Dave Klaus can drop in with details of the v-twin kart they built.

The 305 is a "model 20" industrial motor used on pressure washer, generators, and other equipment. We've been developing them for dirt oval racers for maybe 7 years (I started building them in 2006). The only "approved" motorsports use is for the formula SAE

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines-racing/racing-engines/engine.aspx?model=I/C

Honestly, I have yet to put one on a sprint chassis but I'd love to try it. I did build one on the cheap a while back, it's described here:

http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?t=217792&highlight=305+superstock

Bandolero cars are pretty cool but I've never seen one on a road course. At 750lbs with a full suspension they're more capable of handling such a large engine but I'd be tempted to swap in a sportbike engine like one of my customers did if I had one Shocked

With karts there's just a point of diminishing returns with horsepower. The Aixro rotary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKayagHUCw8

is about all most kart chassis/tire combinations can handle. I'm going to bet it has something to do with the amount of contact patch and using the frame as suspension but maybe somebody with more engineering experience can comment. Folks are running them in the UAS

http://www.unlimitedallstars.org/

but people are complaining that they have an unfair advantage. Neither the reed valve two strokes or big four strokes can really compete with them if you're driver/chassis/tire combination is right. Guys who are trying to do it are spending as much or more on engine development and still haven't gotten there. I haven't heard of anyone running one on a Superkart but 2 or 3 of them would be wicked. So much power for so little weight.

The basic problem you have with a Vanguard v twin is when you increase power with a bigger engine you can accelerate faster but braking and handling are severely influenced by the increased weight. Pretty much all you ever need to do is pick one up and you'll realize it's not going to work for kart racing no matter how many lightweight billet parts you swap in. Lawn tractor racing yes, but for karts it's just not physically or economically viable.

JMHO,
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David Klaus · Joined: 25 Mar 2009 Posts: 31

Ben, It's hard to tell but is that a standard chassis? The one we using was made by a French company called 'Go-kart'. I don't even know if they are still in business.

The V-twin engine build was more to see what we could do. In the slingshot and bandolero programs the M35 engine has been a bullet-proof power plant at a repsectable 40 hp.

The long term thought in the back of our mind was to hit the salt flats to see what we could do. We have another chassis that is narrow like the PT-4 chassis used in road racing but with the engine behind the seat.

Sometimes it's just great to challenge your knowledge and enjoy the grin from ear-to-ear when you hit the gas. lol

John, Beautiful Model 20 engine! You've inspired me to build one for Spring!

John Matthews · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:16 am Post subject:

Hi Dave,

Can't take credit for the Model 20 photo, it's one of Mike's. We do build them just like that, I need to update my website with more of my recent builds.

I'm doing one for an indoor race Feb. 5, hopefully we'll have something good to report.

BTW, great work on the new calendar. Is there any way to order it all printed up?

Thanks,
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Heartbeat Power, LLC.

Benn Herr · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1579

David,

I built that kart custom to fit the V-Twin. The frame rail spacing was a couple of inches wider and so was the front track. Needed the space to fit that big ol' engine and the big ol' driver! The engine was on the left side to get the exhaust pointed away from the driver. It also made the clutch and chain easy to work on along with keeping the heaviest part of the engine close to the center of the kart. The engine went pretty well, I got 99 mph out of it at Phoenix International Raceway and you can see how aero dynamic I was!

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Come see our Superkart Build Off @
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Karl Cleeton · Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject:

How could anyone possibily consider this rediculous! Laughing

John Matthews · Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:35 am Post subject:

I saw that too, crazy Germans....

I think that's probably a bike motor though, not a Briggs. What I really want to know though is are they faster around the track than a Jr. Rotax? Laughing

Cheers,
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Heartbeat Power, LLC.

Jim McMahon · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject:

Reminds me a little of the "Super Prokarts" that are ran in Ireland. Horrid handling, but good racing all the same. They run a behemoth GX620 motor.

http://www.f1karts.co.uk/spro/main.php
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