4 cycle sprint nats.

[Jerry VanDeusen]

this exhibition stuff is BS I was going to run the nats this year in clone.
but why would i drive 4 hours, hotels fuel spend all the money to run a exhibition. not going to happen really bummed me out. shoot now because of this will not be running any IKF races this year.

what I hear is IKF is pushing the 206 sorry But have yet to see one. every were I go always at least 15 plus clones.
IKF needs to pull there heads out of there a$$ clones are here
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INVADER parts, CUSTOM Spindels
one off chassis, parts, Twin engine karts
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clone engines

[Tim Lawrence]

Yes I do not understand the reasoning behind having an exhibition class either at a National event. I realize that clones are getting bigger as a group, maybe because of cost, I would like to see a LO206 class available at a national event for those who want a lower cost option.

[John Matthews]

Hi Jerry,

Agree that exhibition classes are not right for nationals. If a class has enough participation at the regional level then it should earn a spot at the nationals. Are you seeing 15 clones at sprint tracks in Cali? 15 of anything would be a great turnout in this economy. Just wondering though, are they running AKRA rules? Yellow motor only? How is tech done? You've got to know that some of us have strong opinions on clones and their place in karting.

At a local level if you have a friendly group of sportsman racers the clone thing should work well. Especially if everyone really does just buy their engine, pull the governor, drill the jet, hook up the throttle and go racing. That's the intent of the $150 claimer rule and it works if everyone agrees to it.

The trouble is though with so many different manufacturers it's getting to the point where you have to really tech clones to keep things legit just like every other national class. In the dirt oval world everything was going along great with clones until people started having big money races. Once that happened guys would just build cheater motors and not worry about getting claimed if they got caught. Now that there's a set of tech tools and a "spec" cam it's time for the parts sorter dad's to start their dance. We've seen it in every other class, why not clones. Just do a search on here for Comer 50 and you'll see how out of hand it can get. You can also check out this thread on 4 cycle to see why a "clone" isn't any cheaper than a Briggs LO206.

http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?t=355607

I'm certainly not here to defend IKF, nor am I going to tell you that having fields of 15 karts isn't a great thing. It's just that IMHO beginner classes belong at the local club level and when people get good they should move up and let the beginners have fun. Clones are a beginner class, so is LO206. I don't think either one belongs at the nationals. I guess I'm just old enough to remember when you had to qualify for national championship races by winning, or at least placing well in regionals. I almost made it to the nationals with Invader in 1980 but I broke my arm doing stupid stuff with bicycles
It took me three years and quite a few engines to work my way up to that point.

The Briggs LO206 is a rock solid racing engine that sells for less than a "competitive" clone. It can be built into a "Stock" Animal, a Ltd. Mod like this thread is about, or an open making 25hp. It has a resale value even when completely worn out. They are dead nuts even on power out of the box. The rev limiter makes up for any "blueprinting" that folks with money want to do to the head or carb. Tech is easy and since it's the same as for stock Animal, clubs don't have to buy new tools. But most important to my mind is that it's a good experience for the new karter. I think it's up to the leadership of any club to think about the experience of new members and what is likely to keep them participating in the long run. IF that's what IKF is doing then I applaud them....
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[Bernie Lacotta]

[Jerry VanDeusen]

John at the gold rush races the clone class was 27 to 29 karts
is that good or what? but hey lets not like the class with the most entrys
the other big class was kt100 25 plus karts
its a mix a new racers and old racers
the clone class has brought out a bunch of old racers that would not be racing other wise, everyone is broke.
am not sold on the 206 do not like sealed motors.

and there is no animals racing other than at atwater you put a clone together and can show up any were right now and I have class to race in.
not other class has that not even kt100 every club has a strong clone class

at the 4cycle nats this year there not one class that they are running that race in the regional level in Norcal other than clone and they don't even give it a duffy.
I hadn't race in 3 years till 2010 cant afford it, clone I can race
were running AKRA rules

Let me ask this whats a person to run if there to good for clone but cant afford to run anything else?

I would like to get a limited mod clone class going but not sure how many are up for that. can be built for under 700 bucks. and have good power to have fun with.
Bernie I don't take nothing personal
I think the 206 might have worked if it was here 2 years ago its to late.
ah enough bit&hing for one nite
Jerry
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INVADER parts, CUSTOM Spindels
one off chassis, parts, Twin engine karts
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Van-Deusen-Motorsports/115555011804937
clone engines

[John Matthews]

Hi Jerry,

I'd jump at the chance to run with 27 other karts like we did back in the old days. I'd do it with any motor I could get my hands on
Heck, if you look at my posts from a few years ago I was advocating clone engines as a cheap way to get new people out on track. I may even build a clone to run at the tracks downstate if they ever get their entries over five karts; I know I can build a good one in my shop

The only point is if IKF wants a sustainable class that has low costs then they have to look at the long term. Personally, I would like to see local clubs run fun classes like the one AKA had where you could basically bring out whatever you wanted. If clubs offered a "fun" class and an "open" class then there would be good places for beginners and "seasoned" racers as well. There's really no reason that clones, LO206, flatheads, Tecumseh, and anything else shouldn't be able to get out on track and have a good time. Just make the trophy out of lead, paint it gold, and make the winner bolt it on their kart to keep things interesting

But, when you start talking about national championship classes it doesn't make sense to even try making them "affordable." Daddy big bucks won't spare any expense on his kid and you'll never stop that. If Jerry Dover is selling clones for $500 you can bet there are plenty of tracks where it's know that "you can't win without one of those motors." It's exactly what happened with flatheads, somebody found a cheap source of engines and within a few years you needed a $1800 lawnmower engine to compete at your local track. What's worse, every local track started making their own "special" rules so that what's competitive at one track is illegal at another. It doesn't have anything to do with the engines themselves, it's the rules committee made up of engine builders and big buck parents who cause this situation. I'm an engine builder and have a whole collection of these "special" rules that I've built for. But more importantly, I've talked with literally dozens of dad's who've spent a month's salary on building an uncompetitive engine they can only run at their local track and now want me to build a cheater engine so their kid can run with the rest of the pack. It may not be happening at your track but it's happening at others. I'm not particularly a fan of sealed motors either (I started my kart business as an Easykart dealer). But the LO206 shortblock never gets resealed so you know there's no monkeybusiness going on there, and when you cut the seal off you still have an engine you can use for the next class you'll be running, or you can sell it to one of us engine builders for a fair amount.

I have to agree, if Briggs had a crystal ball and introduced the LO206 two years earlier then more tracks would be running it. There are quite a few tracks that run sealed Animals and World Formulas and do pretty well with them. The rise of the clone engine in karting didn't happen just by accident, there are companies who disliked the stock Animal rules because they couldn't make enough money on aftermarket parts with them. I won't go into detail because some of them are my suppliers, but basically they needed a new flathead for their business model and Briggs wasn't giving it to them. I am a Briggs dealer but even though some pretty big names in karting have accused me of it I don't get any compensation for supporting them on the forums. I do it because I believe in what they stand for. Briggs is the only major small engine manufacturer besides Rotax that has a dedicated racing division. They stand behind what they sell, and continually try to make it better. They understand that the racing market needs consistency in parts dimensions so rules can be enforced. And they give back to the sport through sponsorship programs. Plus, they're based in the USA and work hard to understand what kind of racing we really do here.

So, if there are big fields in any class I'd say go run it, it's a lot more fun than racing against two other guys like a lot of sprint classes have been over the past few years. But, when you start to see engines getting out of hand know that there is another option. And by all means, beg, borrow or steal a Ltd. Mod Animal and bolt it onto your kart. Better yet put two of them on your dual engine chassis that's what I'd like to do

Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[Terry Lawrence]

That would be comical to see a LTD Mod Clone againist a Briggs Animal LTD MOD!

The clone would get worked.........It wouldnt stand a chance.


Nationals is not the place to try and make an "affordable" class for club racers!

If you want an affordable class with a big kart cound get into World Formula. At nationals lastyear I believe we had 26 karts and it is in inexpensive motor.

If you want to run clones with the old club racers etc make a "Good Ol boys league"

Clones are not a regional or national IKF class!! That is why they are exhibition only.
In my opinion clones do not belong at nationals and never should be. If they did add that I could enter that class too and I know the good ol boys and the newbie cloners would not like that as they would be backmarkers in the race.

[Bernie Lacotta]

[quote="Terry Lawrence"]That would be comical to see a LTD Mod Clone againist a Briggs Animal LTD MOD!

The clone would get worked.........It wouldnt stand a chance.


Nationals is not the place to try and make an "affordable" class for club racers!

If you want an affordable class with a big kart cound get into World Formula. At nationals lastyear I believe we had 26 karts and it is in inexpensive motor.


Clones are not a regional or national IKF class!! That is why they are exhibition only.
In my opinion clones do not belong at nationals and never should be. If they did add that I could enter that class too and I know the good ol boys and the newbie cloners would not like that as they would be backmarkers in the race.[/quote

I'll second that !
_________________
I breathe ,therefore,I race

[John Matthews]

http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?t=357398&page=1&pp=35
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[Mike Burris]

[Bernie Lacotta]

[Paul Hutt]

Why are the Grand Nationals held in the middle of the Summer instead of a later time.
_________________
Race Grandpa
Panic Motorsports West

[Bernie Lacotta]

[Mike Burris]

[mike clements]

None of this is anything new. It is Political from the get go.
Example: Back in 1993, IKF said they were going to drop the Tecumseh Star class for the region 7 events for "Low Participation". I called around and inquired, "How much participation is enough"? I was told we had to average at least three entries for each of the region 7 races. So... a couple of friends and myself spent time, money and energy to travel to all of the races. In Phoenix, we had 14 entries. At Adams we had 4 entries. So, by the end of the season we had averaged 5 entries per race. Never did we not have at least three entries per race.
Next thing we hear is that the Star class had been dropped for the next season. They said we didn't have enough participation. When we went back through the records from each race, we found that two of the region 7 directors just plain ole didn't like the 4 strokes being in the show. We received a printed sheet showing the sign up from Adams kart track. They took our money and let us run the Star motors in what they called the Star class. But after the race, these two directors blatantly changed us from Star to Stock Heavy. We actually scored points in stock heavy Briggs class without ever running that class all year.
My guess is one of two things: Either follow the money, or follow the guys with the bad attitudes who have the political power to change things to suit themselves.
Rant over .