What about an open tire rule?

Nick Weil · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 11:55 am Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

I just personally like the audio file if you click on Jeff'sname... Chaz...

You are hilarious...

I hope you know Jeff pretty well or he might get upset...

Nick Weil
Rotaxians register here...

Chaz Clover · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 879

Yes, I know Mr. Paynequite well. He has the rather dubious distinction of being single handedly responsible for getting me into this lunacy.

Doesn't really like sushi though - a pity.

He DOES know what a Durometer is though, and I'll bet he even knows how to use one too.

And Nick, I wrote you a nice email about u-no-wotabout a week ago, and no response. What's up with that?

Chaz
http://www.kartmonster.com

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Weil:
I just personally like the audio file if you click on Jeff'sname... Chaz...

You are hilarious...

I hope you know Jeff pretty well or he might get upset...

Nick Weil
Rotaxians register here...

Shannon Schmidt · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:14 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Chaz..your're right, this is great. Thanks for the answer about the durometer. The reason I feel that tire wars drive the cost up is that to build the best and fastest tire, tire companies have to spend money on R&D, which then get passed down the line. The shops for sure won't subsidize the increase, we the racer will. I like how NASCAR, CART, and the IRL run the same tire because it takes that variable out of the equation. You may remember a few years ago in CART, that the Goodyear tire was far slower than the Firestones. In fact, I don't think Goodyear won a race for 3 years or so. The team on Goodyears (mostly Penske and Walker)were stuck with them and they stood virtually no chance to win until they switched.

I guess my biggest beef with this issue is that if 5 different tires are available for use, then likey I'll have to buy all five to find out what works. So that is where I see the cost increase. Maybe the shops will mark the spec tires up a few bucks, but I'd rather pay for it there rather than spend more money and waste more time trying to figure out what tire is the best.

We must all be really bored at work today or something! Hey Nick, are you making the trek across the country to run Grand Nationals?

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Shannon Schmidt ]

Steve French · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:50 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

the point has been missed or lost in the thread , the original surgestion the way I understood it was to run the Masters and Internation on the same tire for comparative performance , as a masters compeditor I would like to use the same tire, and could if I wanted to but I would have to race in the international class. I would like to see the challenge run as it was conceved on the same tires with the same rule everwhere it is run and not changed to suit commercial or gain in any other way . Rotax Max is a good formula leave it alone run it as Rotax wanted to be run ,

Steve F

ps I LOVED THE SOUND BITE DUFAS

Chaz Clover · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 879

The tire companies are already spending boatloads of money on R/D. It's not driven quite so much on what is best and fastest, but what will outsell their competition. That's all they really care about in the boardroom.

If there is no competition, there will be no improvement.

Lets pretend for a minute that the RMC becomes frikken HUGE and goes to a limited open tire rule. Only tires testing between x and y will be allowed. Over the next 3-4 years the MG yellow becomes the tire of choice, because it's cheaper, holds up, and has good grip. And it's winning races. Lots of races.

Vega, Bridgestone and others aren't selling because they don't offer enough of what the MG tire does.

To be competietive in that marketplace those companies will have to beat MG in most if not all categories to become the dominant tire supplier to the RMC.

That means they have to go back to the drawing board. Yes that will cost money, but remember they still have to beat MG on cost. Will a better, but more expensive tire work in the marketplace? Maybe with a few, but market-wide, no.

But the point is moot. We're not talking about a wide-open tire rules. Jeff is talking about a rule limited by degree of hardness. This opens up the field to allow guys like Jeff, who are actually suffering with and spending WAY to much money on spec tires that are ca-ca, to get tires that actually work, hold up for more than 30 laps and stick. It's not like somebody showing up with new, doped YHA's when you're running used Vegas.

Chaz
http://www.kartmosnter.com

quote:
Originally posted by Shannon Schmidt:
Chaz..your're right, this is great. Thanks for the answer about the durometer. The reason I feel that tire wars drive the cost up is that to build the best and fastest tire, tire companies have to spend money on R&D, which then get passed down the line. The shops for sure won't subsidize the increase, we the racer will. I like how NASCAR, CART, and the IRL run the same tire because it takes that variable out of the equation. You may remember a few years ago in CART, that the Goodyear tire was far slower than the Firestones. In fact, I don't think Goodyear won a race for 3 years or so. The team on Goodyears (mostly Penske and Walker)were stuck with them and they stood virtually no chance to win until they switched.

I guess my biggest beef with this issue is that if 5 different tires are available for use, then likey I'll have to buy all five to find out what works. So that is where I see the cost increase. Maybe the shops will mark the spec tires up a few bucks, but I'd rather pay for it there rather than spend more money and waste more time trying to figure out what tire is the best.

We must all be really bored at work today or something! Hey Nick, are you making the trek across the country to run Grand Nationals?

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Shannon Schmidt ]

Brandon Anderson · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 2:10 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Jeff, it seems to me that if a given tire manufacture was given sole rights to a spec series (in this case Bridgestone), they wouldn't risk upsetting their customer base by raising the price mid season. In our case it's even more important not to, because the series is world wide and Rotax has an interest in this as well. If they upset the customer (i.e. the entire world Rotax community), Rotax wouldn't risk the reputation of the series for a tire manufacture that they could replace. Furthermore, Bridgestone must have calculated an acceptable profit margin and with access to the world market is doing just fine.

Another point to consider is the fact that alot of the money that makes this possible (world finals, nationals etc.) comes from the commitment from MAJOR sponsors like Bridgestone. Without them there would be no series and no point in this argument.

P.S. I lied, I am an econ major.....and yes, I am very bored at work....I just wrote this last bit of babble to see my name on the computer screen again.

Chaz Clover · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 879

Jeff's problem is with the Vegas not the 'stones.

He runs RM Masters. The RMC rules are pretty clear that Masters run Vega reds. They are, in many minds, garbage.

Most Masters people I know would stand up cheer if they could run 'stones.

Chaz
http://www.kartmonster.com

quote:
Originally posted by Brandon Anderson:
Jeff, it seems to me that if a given tire manufacture was given sole rights to a spec series (in this case Bridgestone), they wouldn't risk upsetting their customer base by raising the price mid season. In our case it's even more important not to, because the series is world wide and Rotax has an interest in this as well. If they upset the customer (i.e. the entire world Rotax community), Rotax wouldn't risk the reputation of the series for a tire manufacture that they could replace. Furthermore, Bridgestone must have calculated an acceptable profit margin and with access to the world market is doing just fine.

Another point to consider is the fact that alot of the money that makes this possible (world finals, nationals etc.) comes from the commitment from MAJOR sponsors like Bridgestone. Without them there would be no series and no point in this argument.

P.S. I lied, I am an econ major.....and yes, I am very bored at work....I just wrote this last bit of babble to see my name on the computer screen again.

Nick Weil · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:47 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Chazzilla,

I replied to your e-mail regarding u-no-wot. Strange that you did not receive it, I will go check again.

Okay, I am back. I sent you a reply on 8/28, and I just forwarde it again...

Shannon,

Yes I will be in Las Vegas. I am in the process of trying to figure out which Casino's will still allow me to play Blackjack.

To All Rotaxians,

The biggest problem we have here lies in the fact that the powers that be, [url=http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?tyrant01.wav=tyrant')]SSC[/url] are controlling the ball. They are the [url=http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?monopo10.wav=monopoly')]SOLE[/url] importer of the Vegas and they are using their positions as sole importer of the Rotax to capitalize on it. It's what we call free enterprise and it works because people will still register for races next year and still race on the 'unofficial' Official tire.

My position is this... It works for the rest of the world why try and screw it up?

Nick Weil
Come register for free stuff and Rotax Newsletter...

Charles Pou · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:23 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

"But then I was also told months ago that I had a push in my kart, and then I learn that most people are having a problem with the front Vega Reds."

Jeff, get some help and figure out why your kart is pushing.

I know Vega Reds are not the best tire, but you don't have to push, plus you will probably be faster. Have you ever heard the saying: if you are not loose you are not fast. :-)

Shannon Schmidt · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:36 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

I hear what you are saying, but here is how I see it, although differently. Lets say we allow five tire brands at relativley the same price. Lets also say the one guy finds that the Vega Red tire is good on one track configuration, and another guy finds the Bridgestone is good on a different configuration, and so on. So for me to competitive at the same track with different configurations, I will have to buy several sets of different tires. I may need to buy each set twice depending on how much I run. So now we have a tire war and tire wars always cost more money in the long run. At my track, we run the Bridgestone YGK, which is the Rotax spec tire. This weekend I will be on my 3rd set of tires. Given the scenario above, I may have been on my 5th or 6th set by now. I am always looking for a deal, so I have been shopping around prices for Bridgestone tires and I found all the shops offer the tire for about the same price. So I really don't think the shops have as much advantage as we may think. Remember, they will be under pressure from SSC and Rotax to keep those prices down. Thats how I see it!

John Leary · Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:52 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

We don't need an open tire rule, we need a one tire rule. If everyone shows up on race day on YHCs it dosn't matter what the class calls for the race will run on YHCs.

Rob Martin · Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2002 8:40 am Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Open manufacters for a spec class tire can and does work at many club level races. Just look at many clubs that stipulate SL class tires but leave the brand choice up to the consumer.

Choice is what drives economics. Without choice a manufacturer or distributor is free to sell an inferior product to a captive audience at what ever price the market will bear. This is what SSC has chosen to do to Rotax racers in the Masters and Junior class.
The rest of the world is running Bridgestone YGK's, but SSC doesn't sell them.

If the spec tire for the Rotax Masters class represented a good performing, economical tire I don't think anyone would be asking for open tires.

In the short term, open manufacturers would actually increase tire costs and sales as everyone looks for the silver bullet that will magically transform their kart into a winner. In the long term, nearly everyone will settle on one or two brands that meet the primary criteria for a good tire: availability, cost, performance, longevity.

Joe Reed · Joined: 11 Jun 2002 Posts: 48

This debate raged within our local club a few years back and was finally settled????? when IKF changed their rulebook.

1990 to 1995: Everyone raced with YBN's, had a great time and got 1/2 a season out of a set of tires

1996-1997: Brid. YEY's or Dunlop SL4's, pretty good tires and you could make it through a seson with three sets of tires

1997 to present: IKF tire rule centering on the Brid. of the month concept, tires keep getting softer and now to be competative you really can't go more than three races.

IMO, It really doesn't matter what the brand is that's speced, it really is an issue of durablity, Is there something that SSC does sell might do a better job?

Joe

Michael Horley · Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2002 10:27 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

quote:

The rest of the world is running Bridgestone YGK's, but SSC doesn't sell them.[/QB]

The rest of the world isn't running YGK's. The UK probably has the most Max racers and we have to use MG RB's.

Rob Martin · Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 12:00 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Just for clarification....the tire used in the Rotax Max World Finals is Bridgestone.

If other continents have chosen to run MG's at least that is an intelligent choice. Vega Reds are not an intelligent choice.