What about an open tire rule?

Jeff Payne · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 5:51 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Taking from the previous thread on tires, what would be a problem with an open tire rule, but have a minimum durometer reading?

I don't think the shops are making a bunch of money off their tire sales. I do know the best way to lower prices to the consumer is to open up compitition. The one time this isn't true is if too few units are demanded by the market. In theory, if SSC cuts a deal with a certain brand, we should all benifit with a quantity discount. But I haven't seen it work. Here in Denver, the cost of Vega Red front is now up to $70 a pair. I'd rather chose between Bridgestone, Vega, MG, Dunlop, ect. If we use a minimum durometer, wouldn't it still be equal?

Nick Weil · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:20 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

The whole premise behind the Rotax MAX Challenge is that everyone is racing on the same tires, with sealed motors and very few variations in between. If we are going to change to open tires, then why not do away with the seals and have a 3-1/2 hour long tech and impound at every race? And while we are at it let's allow CHT, and EGT sensors so that everyone can use that info as well. We should probably also allow axle clutches so that we can have the Rotax engage at 7,000 RPM's and chirp the tires. Oh yeah, the carburetor should have an adjustable needle so that we can fine tune while we are on the track. (I'd like to see this one so I could sell a ton of pistons, rings and cylinders...)

Enough of the rant. My real point is, this progam is HUGE everywhere in the world right now using one tire, sealed motor, CIK bodywork, no front brakes, NO 50mm AXLES, and minimal data acquisition. Can't we just leave it alone? This question is directed at the Importer as well as the drivers...

1,2,3... Let the intelligent debate begin...

Nick Weil
Rotaxians for a better tomorrow...

Jim Marks · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:08 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Nick;

I agree... and wouldn't the ULTIMATE way to be competitive under an open tire rule be to bring a few sets of tires to practice and see which brand is best THAT DAY for the track/weather conditions??

How will this control our costs.....

Jeff Payne · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:08 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

From the Rotax Max Web site:
"This class endeavours to provide, at club level, performance approaching that of conventional 125cc racing karts combined with low running costs and low noise levels. The RMax Challenge is run as a national clubsport event, sanctioned by the National Motor Sport Federation of the particular country."

My point about tires is that it would lower costs. The previous question about brakes has more to do with the possibility that I'm on the brakes too much. But then I was also told months ago that I had a push in my kart, and then I learn that most people are having a problem with the front Vega Reds. One last point on the brakes, has there ever been a class with rear brakes only with 400 lbs? Just interested in hearing what other people are experiencing in this class.

If you use a minumum durometer reading, the same across the board, then you're well within the concept.

Ryan Han · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:51 pm Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Weil:
My real point is, this progam is HUGE everywhere in the world right now using one tire, sealed motor, CIK bodywork, no front brakes, NO 50mm AXLES, and minimal data acquisition. Can't we just leave it alone?

I could not agree more.

John Desouza · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 220 Location: Afghanistan,

The only thing that needs to be noted is that the tire used by the rest of the world is Bridgestone.

Bruce Woodrow · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 4:13 am Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

quote
Quote:

My point about tires is that it would lower costs.

Jeff,

I totally agree with all that Nick says. If the correct tire is chosen for Masters/Juniors then your concerns about costs will go away. I run YGKs in the International class and this weekend I will run my 7th race on the same set! The wear indicators show that I have only worn them about 40%. The performance of these tires hardly drops off at all and I normally run near the front of the field.

All that needs to be done is to get rid of the Vega reds in favor of a more durable tire (ie YGK or Vega SL7) and then leave well alone.

A definite NO to open tires!!!!

Bruce

Shannon Schmidt · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:36 am Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

Last season, I ran a very old 80cc shifter. It was slow and very uncompetitive. Over the off-season, our track announced they would run the Rotax class. So I did some simple math on what it would cost make my shifter competitve vs. the cost of the Rotax. It was a total no brainer. I simply can't afford a new set of tires every week, a new pipe every month when a new one comes out, engine rebuilds every race and all the other necessities of competitive shifter kart racing. One of the aspects of the Rotax program that lured me was sealed engines, spec tires, and relative low cost operation. When I hear people wanting to change the formula, I get worried that this great program may get runied. Please leave it alone.

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Shannon Schmidt ]

Brandon Anderson · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:17 am Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

I couldn't agree more with Shannon and Nick, leave it alone!!! I'm not an economics major, but I don't see how me buying different compound tires for varying track configurations and all the other variables is going to save me money. Why do people feel a constant need to "modify" a SPEC class?

Jeff Payne · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 9:07 am Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

This same line of thought could call for specing the chassis, spec the axle, spec the hub length, spec the seat, spec the material of the wheel.

Anyhow, I am an Econ major so here it goes, from my observation when a tire gets spec'ed in a series the price of that tire goes up during the season, basic monopoly power over the market. The demand is going to be what it is, if you open up the choice, you have a greater supply of tires and competition will drive down the price, or at least keep them from going up.

It was done in the 80cc kart class in Colorado a few year back. A similar concept would be: 5 Tires allowed:

Brand Current Internet Price
Bridgestone YGK - $161.50
MG Reds $138.84
Dunlop SL4 $142.80
Maxxus SLC $130.00
Vega Blues not sure (but close)

I agree if you're in the finals in Vegas, this argument doesn't hold water, as you would need that added advantage of having the absolute best tire for that day. But from a regional standpoint, all of these tires I think are going to be very comparable, and if a particular brand starts to deteriorate or the price runs up, you can switch to a better alternative.

I hear what you guys are saying though, just wanted to clarify what I was thinking.

Chuck McCue · Joined: 17 Jul 2001 Posts: 2944

Why not spec everything if the true intention of the promoter's is to lessen the racing expenses? spec chassis, seat, wheels etc.
Jeff is correct limited the choice and the prices go up. Simple Eco. 101

Oscar Aguilera · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1614

I like the econ model that was presented but it applies in a different way.

Your kart shop or any for that matter will not stock all the compounds for you to buy. Tires have very little margin and if you throw in all the brands, 5 brands or even just 2 brands to chose from more tires will be left on the shelves of the retailer. This is not good.

OK so you mail order. You even buy in advance the amount of tires you feel you will consume in the year to get a better price. What about shipping?

OK so you and a buddy order together to buy more tires at once so you get the free shipping and a better rate. You are now out all that cash up front whether you finish the series, consume all the tires or find out you picked the tires that changed the way they were made like old MG yellows compared to new MG yellows. Not to mention your tires will be in your garage taking up space and slowly rotting as the year goes on.

Just spec the tire, we are all on the same one. And if you haven't raced against someone with alot of money you will soon learn that this person will buy each set possible and test each set. He might even show up with all the possible sets just to test for that day and each race day.

As far as specing everything that is a little outrageous. Let's not get hasty, I like that the power is equal and the tires are equal. It is bad enough that you are open to test whatever chassis that you want, but if we have to spec an axle, or something else you have defeated the purpose of Fair, competitive racing. That is all the class is supposed to provide. It is fair and it is competitive. It is made inexpensive because of the rules that are in place. You have to drive and tune the kart that is really all that a driver should do. Motor prep or mods are for motor builders to do. It is always the guy that tinkers too much and hasn't learned the entire discipline of karting that gets into trouble. So you've raced all your life and now you want to do motors? Hey knock yourself out just do it somewhere other than Rotax.

Hey why don't we spec the rig that you are allowed to show up in so that Johnny racer doesn't have an adnavtage over you because his trailer is air conditioned and has a TV so he can relax?

If you still want to order the Spec tire the way I outlined I am sure your shop will work a deal with you. Just order for the year and or grab a buddy to do it with you. A shop IMO would be happy to not even have to have tires on hand. They only do it to have what the customer will need and offer a service.

In all reality if I am a tire distributor and everyone goes to open tire rule and I have the tires everyone needs/wants, all I would have to do is raise the price in true economics. Just order less so they run out and then I raise the price, hehe.

The spec tire actually helps and usually a retail price is agreed upon at season begining. I have yet to see a tire price go up half way through the series. About the Vega tires, buying two fronts will always have a higher price for the two fronts individualy then the price breakdown of the fronts when ordering a set.
As far as the prices stated on tires to date that may or may not be the price that the shop or distributor can offer with current sales forcasted. If a shop offers more tire brands his shop ordering will fall for each brand and then the prices will go up for him for the tires that don't sell.

Leave it alone and I, IMO even think the Road racers should leave it alone as well. Not even allow a belt drive, just run the same rules across the board. Isn't that what we all wish each sanctioning body would do? Why is it different for a class or a tire compound?

If the track is bumpy we are all on the same track for that day.

I haven't raced an 80 again until now which is 4 years later. It is a whole new ball game and I am playing catch up.

I can jump in any Rotax, any chassis make and it pretty much is the same. I can add to what I have learned and RR or sprint race.
The carb isn't the best but it is the same. The tires are the same compound from a year ago and I know what the kart should feel like from chassis to chassis or track to track.

Leave it please and follow a true world formula. If Rotax decides to change oh well you can't do anything about that, but it will still be the same across the board or pond.

JIMO

Chaz Clover · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 879

I think an important point is being missed. Jeff isn't advocating a wide-open tire rule. Rather he's suggesting a "minimum durometer" spec. That's really not far from the spec as it stands - it just takes out the brand issue.

It also opens the series to other manufacturers/distributors who might be more likely to support RMC if they could get a piece of it.

Chaz
http://www.kartmonster.com

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Chaz Clover ]

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Chaz Clover ]

Shannon Schmidt · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 11:14 am Post subject: What about an open tire rule?

If the minimum duromenter is not far off from the spec, then why not just run the spec and stop worrying about the rule? Heck, I don't even know what a durometer does, I don't want to buy one, and I don't think it needs to be so complicated. There is a reason why NASCAR, CART, and IRL all run the same tire within their series. Tire wars just drive the costs up, both for the manufacturer and the consumer.

Chaz Clover · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 879

This is great.

IF I'm not mistaken a durometer is a device that can test the tire compound hardness.

You don't have to buy one. Tire mfg's all rate their tires along that line so you don't have to self test. The tech guys would have it for compliance purposes.

It's not complicated at all.

The reason NASCR, CART and IRL may use the same tire is because they're PAID for it. Another reason: For some years Goodyear made all F1 tires - not because they had a lock on the series, but because nobody else made tires for the series.

Having a multitude of suppliers in in a national/international spec series would most likely drive costs down and improve overall quality. That's what competition does in the marketplace.

Chaz
http://www.kartmonster.com

quote:
Originally posted by Shannon Schmidt:
If the minimum duromenter is not far off from the spec, then why not just run the spec and stop worrying about the rule? Heck, I don't even know what a durometer does, I don't want to buy one, and I don't think it needs to be so complicated. There is a reason why NASCAR, CART, and IRL all run the same tire within their series. Tire wars just drive the costs up, both for the manufacturer and the consumer.