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kyle luttrell
Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 35
Location: United States, Georgia, white
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Keith Freber"][quote="kyle luttrell"] | Greg Dingess wrote: | | kyle luttrell wrote: |
I'm not going to keep on about another brand chassis because its not my attentions to make margay look bad I waS just simply stating I didn't think you were heat treating the spindles because I have two margay spindles here zinc plated that I tested the hardness of and they had not been treated that doesn't mean anything bad but just that they haven't been heat treated. |
Hi Kyle-
As a manufacturer, I'm sure you take a lot of pride in the karts and components you produce. We do to and that is why I feel it necessary to respond to your statement above.
We have been producing our own spindle shafts since 1967. Whether 5/8", 17mm or 25mm diameter, every one we have produced has been made from 86L20 steel then heat-treated to our specifications. We have never produced a spindle shaft that has not been heat-treated. It's that simple.
If the spindles you have are zinc plated (blue zinc, not yellow zinc), those are the spindles utilized on the karts we made in the 1970's, 80's and early 90's. We still produce those for replacement parts and as they have been since the late 60's, those too are heat treated to the same specs as our current spindles (shown below).
We guarantee our spindle shafts for life against failure or permanent deformation. Please feel free to return the spindles that you feel are in question. We'll check the Rockwell and if, for some reason, they are not within spec we will gladly replace them to you free of charge.
| kyle luttrell wrote: |
As for material 8620 has alot of carbon in it and general made strong by heat treating I'd be willing to be margay isn't heat treating its not cost effective.
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That's a bet I'll take, how much are you down for?  In my opinion, heat-treating is the best bargain out there. Heat-treating is magic...it's so cool to take a piece of material that is user-friendly to machine and then transform it into something that is user-friendly in much different way (i.e. being bullet proof) all at a relatively minor cost. Life as a manufacturer is much easier when you have the right 'magician' and I think we have one of the best: Paulo Products (http://www.paulo.com/). These guys are the absolute best at what they do, you might want to check them out. Their prices are more than reasonable and their service is outstanding.
We're hoping to make a short video in the near future on how me make our spindle shafts (sure there may be better things to spend our time on but we get pretty amped up about making stuff...). In the meantime, here are a few pics:
25mm LH shaft, post machining, pre heat-treat
17mm spindle shafts, post heat-treat
25mm RH spindle, finished
17mm & 25mm Spindles
If it's not evident in the photos, we put a lot of effort into the production of our spindles and take a lot of pride in the finished product. To not heat treat the shaft to save a few bucks doesn't make sense. Not to mention the performance aspect...hanging a limp noodle off either front corner isn't exactly helpful...
I'm with Gary & Andy, it's time for more racing and less posting.  |
Hey Gary,
I appreciate you responding and ill take your word that all the spindles you are producing are being heat treated but the one I checked had not been.
That is why I began manufacturing my own if you go to our face book page you can check them out.
Btw I hope to see y'all at new castle racing I'd like to see how one of your new chassis competes against a new Ionic Edge I really feel like the competition is going to be top notch!
_________________
Kyle Luttrell
www.Luttrellracing.com
Ionic Edge
Kyle@luttrellracing.com
https://www.facebook.com/IonicEdgeChassis |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mike clements wrote: |  Andy, That you for understanding and trying to explain it.
For me personally, one of my favorite expressions is: "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you".
You managed to do both.
When we take a statement used on a Karting website and apply them to karting, it should be clear as to the meaning. However, sometimes we run into "rocket scientists" who just enjoy stirring the pot.
Happy Motoring,
MC |
Nothing worse than someone trying to find something to be right about.
_________________
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. -- Winston Churchill. |
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Michael Purnell
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mike clements wrote: |
By the way, I just confirmed my earlier posts with two other structural engineers. Drilling a hole down the center of a bar or beam does indeed increase it's strength. The trick is you have to know what % can be removed.
I can cite cases where this worked very well and a few cases where too large of a hole was drilled and the part became weaker.
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Mike,
You say you can cite cases, please cite the cases.
The website Joseph provided seems reputable to me, certainly far more reputable than any sort of proof that you have offered so far which, basically, consists of "i talked to a couple of structural engineers" and "my list of accomplishments is my proof". Please present some REAL proof.
Im not saying you are necessarily wrong about this, although i suspect that you are, but i would really love to see you offer some REAL proof.
Has anybody else ever heard what Mike is claiming? |
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mike clements
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 238
Location: United States, Arizona, San Tan Valley
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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At the end of the day, the guy that walks away with the Duffy is the winner.
If winning isn't enough proof for you, then you are out of luck.
I'm not playing your hate game any more.
_________________
Began kart racing 1959. Made many friends along the way. |
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Mike Goebel
Joined: 28 Jul 2001
Posts: 5765
Location: United States, California, Winnetka
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mike clements wrote: | | At the end of the day, the guy that walks away with the Duffy is the winner. |
Is that proof that a hollow tube is stronger and stiffer than a solid one?
Mike G.
_________________
Closet KZ Lover!!!
mfg Technology Centre
So Cal’s #1 Non Profit Engine Builder |
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Bruce Woodrow
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 472
Location: China, not USA, Nanjing
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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There seem to be several issues here:
1. The pervasive attitude that kart tuning is a 'black art' and that the Laws of physics do not apply to karts, or anything attached to them
2. Terminology - i.e. the terms strength and stiffness seem to have been confused
3. A lack of engineering/physics knowledge (root cause of 1 and 2, above)
Solutions:
1. The Laws (yes - Laws, NOT theory) of physics DO apply to karts - get over it! Every change made to a kart can be analyzed and its effect calculated/simulated. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but magic isn't real.
2. Some explanation:
STRENGTH refers to how much force can be applied before an item is either permanently deformed (doesn't spring back to original shape) - referred to as yield strength, or fails - referred to as ultimate strength.
STIFFNESS is the inverse of flexibility. It is a measure of how much force must be applied to cause a certain deflection or deformation
Although dimensionally identical parts made from different carbon steels have widely varying strengths, they ALL have virtually the same stiffness. I.E. changing the material of an axle or spindle does not change its deflection for a given load (force) - changing component dimensions is the only way to achieve different stiffness of steel parts.
There is however another material property that affects the behavior of parts under dynamic (rapidly changing) load conditions - Internal damping. 'Soft' steels have more internal damping than 'Hard' steels. So, although parts made from different grade steels will deflect by the same amount when a fixed load is applied, when the load is varied, the rate of change of deflection will be different for the different steel grades. This is somewhat demonstrated by the different 'ringing' sounds made by dimensionally identical rear axles made from different grade steels - 'soft' axles are relatively dead (well damped) and don't ring as well, or as long, as 'hard' (less damped) axles.
So, there are two ways to affect the influence of a steel spindle on kart handling (without changing steering geometry):
a) Change the spindle dimensions (stiffness)
b) Change the grade of steel (damping)
Both have an effect on the strength pf the spindle, but as long as the spindle doesn't permanently deform or break, strength has no influence on the behavior of the spindle - it just tells you how hard a hit the spindle can take, without causing a problem.
In the case of a); if a hole is drilled through the center of the spindle and no other dimensions are changed, there will be 2 effects:
i) The stiffness will be reduced (easy to calculate due to reduction in moment of inertia (I))
ii) The strength will be reduced (easy to calculate due to increased bending stress (bending strength) and reduced cross sectional area (shear strength))
However, I think that what is causing confusion here is that for the same weight spindle (i.e. uses the same volume of steel), a spindle with a hollow shaft will be stiffer than one with a solid shaft - but this means increasing the outside diameter of the shaft. Alternatively, a hollow shaft spindle made to have the same stiffness as a solid shaft spindle, will be lighter.
3. Do some research - it's NOT Rocket Science!
There is no pot to stir, facts are facts.
Bruce |
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Bruce Woodrow
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 472
Location: China, not USA, Nanjing
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mike clements wrote: | At the end of the day, the guy that walks away with the Duffy is the winner.
If winning isn't enough proof for you, then you are out of luck.
I'm not playing your hate game any more. |
Mike,
I haven't seen any evidence of 'hate' in any of the responses you have received - just a willingness to help you understand...
Bruce |
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patrick slattery
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 787
Location: United States, Ohio, cleves
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Keith Freber"][quote="kyle luttrell"] | Greg Dingess wrote: | | kyle luttrell wrote: |
I'm not going to keep on about another brand chassis because its not my attentions to make margay look bad I waS just simply stating I didn't think you were heat treating the spindles because I have two margay spindles here zinc plated that I tested the hardness of and they had not been treated that doesn't mean anything bad but just that they haven't been heat treated. |
Hi Kyle-
As a manufacturer, I'm sure you take a lot of pride in the karts and components you produce. We do to and that is why I feel it necessary to respond to your statement above.
We have been producing our own spindle shafts since 1967. Whether 5/8", 17mm or 25mm diameter, every one we have produced has been made from 86L20 steel then heat-treated to our specifications. We have never produced a spindle shaft that has not been heat-treated. It's that simple.
If the spindles you have are zinc plated (blue zinc, not yellow zinc), those are the spindles utilized on the karts we made in the 1970's, 80's and early 90's. We still produce those for replacement parts and as they have been since the late 60's, those too are heat treated to the same specs as our current spindles (shown below).
We guarantee our spindle shafts for life against failure or permanent deformation. Please feel free to return the spindles that you feel are in question. We'll check the Rockwell and if, for some reason, they are not within spec we will gladly replace them to you free of charge.
| kyle luttrell wrote: |
As for material 8620 has alot of carbon in it and general made strong by heat treating I'd be willing to be margay isn't heat treating its not cost effective.
|
That's a bet I'll take, how much are you down for? In my opinion, heat-treating is the best bargain out there. Heat-treating is magic...it's so cool to take a piece of material that is user-friendly to machine and then transform it into something that is user-friendly in much different way (i.e. being bullet proof) all at a relatively minor cost. Life as a manufacturer is much easier when you have the right 'magician' and I think we have one of the best: Paulo Products (http://www.paulo.com/). These guys are the absolute best at what they do, you might want to check them out. Their prices are more than reasonable and their service is outstanding.
We're hoping to make a short video in the near future on how me make our spindle shafts (sure there may be better things to spend our time on but we get pretty amped up about making stuff...). In the meantime, here are a few pics:
25mm LH shaft, post machining, pre heat-treat
17mm spindle shafts, post heat-treat
25mm RH spindle, finished
17mm & 25mm Spindles
If it's not evident in the photos, we put a lot of effort into the production of our spindles and take a lot of pride in the finished product. To not heat treat the shaft to save a few bucks doesn't make sense. Not to mention the performance aspect...hanging a limp noodle off either front corner isn't exactly helpful...
I'm with Gary & Andy, it's time for more racing and less posting. |
KEITH,
Nice looking products. I also like the predrilled holes in the end of the spindle.
Pat |
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Andy Seesemann
Expert
Joined: 16 Jul 2001
Posts: 3289
Location: United States, California, Fullerton
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Keith Freber
Joined: 27 Jul 2001
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| patrick slattery wrote: |
KEITH,
Nice looking products. I also like the predrilled holes in the end of the spindle.
Pat |
Thanks Pat! You definitely want to drill those holes pre heat-treat.
_________________
Keith Freber
Margay Racing, LLC
www.margay.com
www.facebook.com/MargayRacing |
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Mike Goebel
Joined: 28 Jul 2001
Posts: 5765
Location: United States, California, Winnetka
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce Woodrow wrote: |
1. The Laws (yes - Laws, NOT theory) of physics DO apply to karts
Bruce |
Yes they exist in the real world but not in the minds of people that live in the real world. 
Mike G.
_________________
Closet KZ Lover!!!
mfg Technology Centre
So Cal’s #1 Non Profit Engine Builder |
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michael schorn
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 577
Location: United States, Oregon, Banks
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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kyle the chassis looks real nice. I do have a question Why isn't the master cylinder bolts drilled and pinned? Just curious?
_________________
OK everyone It's my opinion only, no one elses, and does not reflect any organization or office that I belong to or hold. Thank you for your support.
Portland Karting Association
Host 2013 IKF 4 Cycle Sprint
& Road Race Grand Nationals |
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kyle luttrell
Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 35
Location: United States, Georgia, white
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michael schorn
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 577
Location: United States, Oregon, Banks
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| Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:02 am Post subject: |
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Okay that makes sense thanks.
_________________
OK everyone It's my opinion only, no one elses, and does not reflect any organization or office that I belong to or hold. Thank you for your support.
Portland Karting Association
Host 2013 IKF 4 Cycle Sprint
& Road Race Grand Nationals |
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