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Roger Miller
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Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 2928
Location: United States, California, San Jose
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Just to clarify for IKF information -
IKF is the only body in the US that has an official set of rules for one Superkart class - ICE.
WKA and KART do not have any rules specific to Superkarts.
There are the ongoing attempts to create Superkart organizations in the US, and they have whatever sets of rules they create when they form.
The only other somewhat regular set of rules is when we have a Laguna Seca event, which for the last several years has been hosted by NCK.
NCK is an IKF based club. We use the IKF rulebook, so our ICE class conforms to what is in the current rulebook
NCK has created the Super ICE class, and the FE class as LOCAL OPTION classes within our IKF rules and this is the basis for what is used at Laguna Seca.
The Super ICE class was originally built for the GasGas 250K - and as these exotic kits come out - they can be there as well. So Honda CR250 6 speeds, Wiwa Honda kits, Viper Honda kits, DEA whatever and etc, etc are all accepted there. Essentially the engine rules for Super ICE are - single cylinder, maximum 250cc.
As has been stated previously in other discussions, we have been jealously guarding the ICE class rules to keep them more OEM - and exclude the escalating expensive things that come along. Back in 2005 when I first started being crew chief for a Superkart driver, there were 2 Superkarts that were regularly running with NCK and only a handful in the NorthWest. As we worked and developed the CR450 and then the CR250, the numbers have been growing nicely to where we can get close to 20 ICEs on a fairly regular basis running a mix of CR250s and Rotaxs. Our concerns have been that we have seen the ICE class decimated when the GasGas is introduced.
Carry on.
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Roger Miller
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Miller wrote: | Just to clarify for IKF information -
IKF is the only body in the US that has an official set of rules for one Superkart class - ICE.
WKA and KART do not have any rules specific to Superkarts.
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I take exception to that, what exactly are "official set of rules"?
What IKF has and myself and everybody else has had in this country is obviously a watered down version of the CIK rules. JR Clasen and what was called the "World Super Kart" at the time is where that original watered down version came from that everybody copied and adopted....
CR
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Roger Miller
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 2928
Location: United States, California, San Jose
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:28 am Post subject: |
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OK, whatever. I didn't mean it as any affront to anyone. Just stating that IKF has ICE rules. WKA/KART don't.
Beyond those three bodies in the US, then we get to "independent" orgs. And I acknowledge that CIK, which is not US, has whatever they have and should be the fundamental basis.
Just trying to set a context for statements made in this thread about "IKF" |
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Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi Roger
Well put!
A clear and concise vision of were your competitors come from and protecting their interests, to maintain future growth from a proven, easily understood, stable and econoical platform.
A very sensible formula and long may it continue.
Best Regards
Ian 
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian Harrison wrote: |
A clear and concise vision of were your competitors come from and protecting their interests, to maintain future growth from a proven, easily understood, stable and econoical platform.
A very sensible formula and long may it continue.
Best Regards
Ian |
Of JR Clasen, the one that started it, he also put together the whole Laguna deal... The IKF wouldn't have an ICE class, and the US probably would have any type of superkart racing if it weren't him.
Roger and others have done a very good job of making the changes and keeping it alive.
My philosophy is to keep the class count down to minimum. If it works on the left coast, more power to you. 2 classes suit me, Wiwa runs with FE, and if any of those "boutique" motors materialize and dominate, then I have a decision to make that maybe they should get dropped in with FE also. I look at how many Yamaha classes are out there....
CR
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Sam Moss
Joined: 28 Aug 2012
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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You guys in the US have an absurd number of kart classes and even different regs for the same class depending on the state you run in!  The short circuit UK scene is going the same way. When I started it was 2 Cadet classes, 3 Jnr Classes and 3 Snr Classes and the same 4 Gearbox classes we have now on long circuit.
But there's now 4 Cadet classes, and nearly double again in Jnr and Snr all with dwindling numbers, apart from Gearbox it seems as we have a steady number of people running.
In future I would say 2x 250 Nat classes is more sensible for here in Europe but whether it happens or not, I guess time will tell. |
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Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | My philosophy is to keep the class count down to minimum. If it works on the left coast, more power to you. 2 classes suit me, Wiwa runs with FE, and if any of those "boutique" motors materialize and dominate, then I have a decision to make that maybe they should get dropped in with FE also. I look at how many Yamaha classes are out there....
CR |
Sounds good Chris, only thing I'd say (and I believe Sam Z would strongly agree with me), is that decisions about the boutique motors should be made before anyone buys one and then gets their nose put out of joint.
Best Regards
Ian
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Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
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+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian Harrison wrote: |
Sounds good Chris, only thing I'd say (and I believe Sam Z would strongly agree with me), is that decisions about the boutique motors should be made before anyone buys one and then gets their nose put out of joint.
Best Regards
Ian |
| Ian Harrison wrote: | | Otherwise, you could buy a 2013 version Viper Race Tuned Honda cylinder and 2-piece head for your Honda CR250 and put out 68Hp at 10,700rpm and max 34ftlb of torque. |
Then I would have to bump yours up to the twin class also!
See where this is going?
I think the equalizer is going to be the gearbox, the stock Honda 5 speed has a nasty space between 4th and 5th, if someone was to go with a 6 speed, I can see a clear advantage, my rules state standard number of gears, ratio's open.
I'll wait and see if anything arises...
CR
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Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | Then I would have to bump yours up to the twin class also!
See where this is going? CR |
Works fine for me, Chris
Personally I would advocate 3 x 250 classes: ICE, 250 EVO (I would call it - Viper, DEA, THR, WIWA) and FE (twins). But if you really want to restrict to 2 classes then it's fairer and more likely to suceed with 250 EVO grouped with FE.
The development/cost spiral with Div 1 (FE) in Europe has been absolutely massive over the past 2 years. In fact just totally stupid, perhaps even unsustainable. 250 EVO may be poised to fill that void?
Best Regards
Ian
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Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
www.viper-racinguk.co.uk
sales@viper-racinguk.co.uk
+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
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Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian Harrison wrote: |
The development/cost spiral with Div 1 (FE) in Europe has been absolutely massive over the past 2 years. In fact just totally stupid, perhaps even unsustainable. 250 EVO may be poised to fill that void? |
My point exactly, it's really only going to be 2 classes.
CR
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Sam Zavaglia
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 1194
Location: Australia, Sydney,
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
I think the equalizer is going to be the gearbox, the stock Honda 5 speed has a nasty space between 4th and 5th, if someone was to go with a 6 speed, I can see a clear advantage, my rules state standard number of gears, ratio's open.
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Disagree with you on this one Chris.
I just broke a lap record in Stock Honda using only 4 of the 6 gears with a standard 6 speeder.......3, 4, 5, 6.
The 6 speeder also have a rather large gap between 5th and 6th.
I could do the same with the standard 5 speeder using 2, 3, 4, 5 at the same circuit.
It's all about carrying corner speed with a good chassis setup and better outright HP. That will trump the difference between having a 5 or 6 speed any day of the week, especially if you have the torque of a 250 single at your disposal. 
At another circuit where you will find me always at the pointy end, I only use 3, 4, 5......hahaha only a 3 speeder.......just trying to keep 1st, 2nd and 6th gear fresh
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Chris Reinhardt
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Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam Zavaglia wrote: |
Disagree with you on this one Chris.
I just broke a lap record in Stock Honda using only 4 of the 6 gears with a standard 6 speeder.......3, 4, 5, 6.
The 6 speeder also have a rather large gap between 5th and 6th.
I could do the same with the standard 5 speeder using 2, 3, 4, 5 at the same circuit.
It's all about carrying corner speed with a good chassis setup and better outright HP. That will trump the difference between having a 5 or 6 speed any day of the week, especially if you have the torque of a 250 single at your disposal.
At another circuit where you will find me always at the pointy end, I only use 3, 4, 5......hahaha only a 3 speeder.......just trying to keep 1st, 2nd and 6th gear fresh |
I disagree that you're disagreeing with me! 
I never said a 5 speed CR250 wasn't fast... You agree that the torque is what allows the stock gearbox not to be a problem, so my thought is any type of specialized "boutique" motor if it's going to have more HP it will almost certainly going to have it in a more narrow range which will make the stock 5 speed more of an issue. Hence a 6 speed would make it a more of an exceptional package.
You could leave it 5th and use an axle clutch!!!!
CR
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Sam Zavaglia
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 1194
Location: Australia, Sydney,
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
so my thought is any type of specialized "boutique" motor if it's going to have more HP it will almost certainly going to have it in a more narrow range which will make the stock 5 speed more of an issue. Hence a 6 speed would make it a more of an exceptional package.
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If I'm understanding correctly, I disagree
The "boutique" engines with more HP will also have a wider range with more torque. Ian could confirm from his experiences, but no one smart in this world would be making peakier engines with a narrower range for Superkarting........furthermore, it's never going to be a lesser area under that range to what it originally was.
I followed JRO's GAS GAS at Laguna Seca in 2011 with my twin, the torque he had coming out of the corners and the way he used that was as good as any twin in the world!
BTW, the Laguna Seca lap record is done using all 6 gears, 1st gear is very long, 5th gear is short, 6th gear is very short.
All six gears are tuned for different corners, but if you can't meet your target corner speeds, your not in the required rev range and could find yourself losing time by so much shifting in the wrong areas. Most times it's better to let the torque do the work and less playing with your stick....hence 5 gears is not all that bad on a 250 single.....then again a 250 single does not rev out as far as a twin
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam Zavaglia wrote: |
If I'm understanding correctly, I disagree
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You are misunderstanding me, and I raise you a disagreement 
If Ian can build a higher HP stock barrel CR250 with a wider power band, (and I'm not saying he doesn't) then why would anybody buy a boutique motor or parts in the first place? That kinda makes this whole conversation a mute point.
CR
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East Coast Super Kart Series
"This is how we roll!"
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Ian Harrison
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain), Manchester
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Hi Guys
In regard to gear box ratios, it's not so much number of gears as the rev drop between gears.
Sam is of course 100% right with regard to kart setup and corner speed which nobody would dispute.
Chris is correct in that he identified a particular deficiency in the standard 5-speed Honda box. That is a huge gap between 3rd and 4th and again between 4th and 5th. This is typical of motocross gearboxes in general.
It means that when you change gear at 11,000 rpm with lets say 62Hp, you then drop to say 58Hp, so your acceleration rate slows.
The standard rev drop changing at 11K rpm is:
3rd to 4th - 1913 rpm
4th to 5th - 14355 rpm
You can then substitue our 4th and 5th alternative gears which gives
3rd to 4th - 1459 rpm
4th to 5th - 1023 rpm
This means that when you change at 11,000 from 3rd you have say 62 Hp (climbing) and from 4th to 5th say 64Hp (climbing).
This also compensates for the higher wind resistance at higher speed.
It's all just physics, no magic and no mumbo jumbo.
However, Sam does identify that if you have the ability to easily change ratios (like in a cassette gearbox twin), it may be more important to match ratios to corner exit speeds than consider rev drops as being the holy grail. However, I don't think we are (or want to be) in this realm with a reed valve 250 single. Let's kep a hat on costs.
You see what Roger described on the West Coast, that's all driven by reasonable cost and stability. That a competitor with a modest budget can compete well within the field, and have a bit of fun using their own ingenuity. It's the spirit of ICE/250 National.
The new full 250 EVO motors should achieve close to 80Hp with a similar spread of power as the current 250 motors, on which I see the realistic ceiling being 68-70Hp. Nobody really knows as yet for sure. The major benefit is actually the rear exit exhaust (Here were talking about a big version, balance shafted ICC motor). It's that 180 degree (and more)front section bend that saps the power. There is an issue with induction over a contra-rotating (to inlet flow) crank, but I believe that this effect will be minimised by shrouding the top of the crankshaft.
At 80Hp, the lap times at most circuits (and somewhere like Laguna Seca in particular), I expect will be better than most current FE (Div 1).
I still think 2 class is a brave move. You are almost pre-empting the extinction of FE (Div1), which I for 1 would hate to see.
Best Regards
Ian
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Ian Harrison
Viper Racing UK
www.viper-racinguk.co.uk
sales@viper-racinguk.co.uk
+44 7984 225 564
+44 161 343 2009
Championship winning Superkart race team 1997-2012 |
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