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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I never forget watching Earnhardt Sr commenting on Jr when he smacked the wall. To paraphrase, "That wasn't a crash, that's sperience!". You can't really explain how to build a good race motor. You can read all the books, listen to all the advice, you're going have to break some parts before find out what the limit of all of them are.
That's all I'm saying Kiddo, you're smart, you'll figure it all out eventually...
CR
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2787
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Tyson Henry wrote: | | What exactly can a motor builder do, within the rules,to make more power. If you have to use all oem parts, have a select few other auxiliary parts to choose from, what do you do besides make sure everything is meticulously put together? Honest question here. What are some things you think they do to have an edge?. |
Few things that come to mind are cherry picked cylinders (Dyno 20 different cylinders: Keep, the best, Flog the rest), cherry picked CDI boxes, optimal power valve plug shape, reeds, silencer composition and general blueprinting to make sure everything is at the absolute edge of tolerance. Al of these affect performance to a greater or lesser degree, Rene and co know these things. Of course you need a lot of knowledge and skill to make those 20+ dyno pulls meaningful and actually translate to on-track performance and this is where the likes of Swedetech and co make the difference. That's not to say you can't come and play with your own stuff, that's not what I'm suggesting at all!! I say build it and bring it!
How much difference it all makes is kind of a how long is a piece of string question, ask 20 people you'll get 20 different answers.
Anyway, I agree with working on your own stuff when you can, if nothing else it gives you a basis to call BS should you feel hard done by an engine builder, or at the very least have an idea of the kind of efforts they go through to get things right for a customer.
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Tyson Henry
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 361
Location: United States, Texas, Arlington
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Jim McMahon wrote: | | Tyson Henry wrote: | | What exactly can a motor builder do, within the rules,to make more power. If you have to use all oem parts, have a select few other auxiliary parts to choose from, what do you do besides make sure everything is meticulously put together? Honest question here. What are some things you think they do to have an edge?. |
Few things that come to mind are cherry picked cylinders (Dyno 20 different cylinders: Keep, the best, Flog the rest), cherry picked CDI boxes, optimal power valve plug shape, reeds, silencer composition and general blueprinting to make sure everything is at the absolute edge of tolerance. Al of these affect performance to a greater or lesser degree, Rene and co know these things. Of course you need a lot of knowledge and skill to make those 20+ dyno pulls meaningful and actually translate to on-track performance and this is where the likes of Swedetech and co make the difference. That's not to say you can't come and play with your own stuff, that's not what I'm suggesting at all!! I say build it and bring it!
How much difference it all makes is kind of a how long is a piece of string question, ask 20 people you'll get 20 different answers.
Anyway, I agree with working on your own stuff when you can, if nothing else it gives you a basis to call BS should you feel hard done by an engine builder, or at the very least have an idea of the kind of efforts they go through to get things right for a customer. |
But, say I, a nobody, orders a swedetech motor. Certainly they aren't going to cherry pick cylinders and CDI boxes for me? I am sure they do that for their big name guys running up front to make sure they are going to win with the swedetech name, but the regular joe? Maybe for a big fee.
One thing I don't understand is how you can change tolerances on anything without grinding in some way. Well, other than just hand picking parts again (rings with smallest gaps, etc).
Chris, what kind of performance gains do you typically see with a motor being "blueprinted?" Not hand picked parts, but just doing all the small things you are referring to. |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Tyson Henry wrote: | But, say I, a nobody, orders a swedetech motor. Certainly they aren't going to cherry pick cylinders and CDI boxes for me? I am sure they do that for their big name guys running up front to make sure they are going to win with the swedetech name, but the regular joe? Maybe for a big fee.
One thing I don't understand is how you can change tolerances on anything without grinding in some way. Well, other than just hand picking parts again (rings with smallest gaps, etc).
Chris, what kind of performance gains do you typically see with a motor being "blueprinted?" Not hand picked parts, but just doing all the small things you are referring to. |
Call Swedetech, they don't "Cherry Pick" otherwise they would be out of business. If they can't sell the same motor that wins a national to Joe karter, they mind as well close the doors, racers aren't that stupid it would be posted all over here. And cherry picking you clientele is how to close your business 101.
I never dyno'd a bone stock kit motor....
CR
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2787
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Tyson Henry wrote: | | Well, other than just hand picking parts again (rings with smallest gaps, etc). |
Bingo! Rings, cylinders, heads, cases you name it. Gains to be had from a motor that's mass produced for a market where power isn't king.
How much of the cherry picking filters down to the $5-6K (Insert builders name) package is anyone's guess.
Cherry pick might not be the best term to use...but anyway.... Reputable builders aren't doing to sell you a dog so you could argue cherrypicking or whatever you want to call it is a process that happens organically anyway. Sub-optimal cylinders etc, wont get put on their motors, that's a surefire way to lose custom.
As for the "national" spec being available to Joe Karter thing, IMO Chris' perspective is nieve. In racing, perception > reality, every time. It doesn't matter whether you can get what the front guys have or not, what matters is that you "think" you can. That's what sells, hence the "Stock" moto phenomena.
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Tyson Henry
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 361
Location: United States, Texas, Arlington
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | Call Swedetech, they don't "Cherry Pick" otherwise they would be out of business. If they can't sell the same motor that wins a national to Joe karter, they mind as well close the doors, racers aren't that stupid it would be posted all over here. And cherry picking you clientele is how to close your business 101.
I never dyno'd a bone stock kit motor....
CR |
If you have never dyno'ed a bone stock cr125, how do you know the "blueprinting" stuff you have done makes a difference?
I really am not trying to argue here. I am just trying to get an understanding of the kinds of differences we are really talking about. |
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Keith Bridgeman
Joined: 24 Aug 2001
Posts: 1348
Location: United States, Minnesota, Farmington
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Someone posted a "hand picked" 01 cylinder on the classifieds for $800 awhile back. There is always a difference between what I can get and what the top team guys get. It's that way in all racing though. The gap in stock might be smaller though but it might even make a bigger difference when it's stock.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith Bridgeman wrote: | | Someone posted a "hand picked" 01 cylinder on the classifieds for $800 awhile back. There is always a difference between what I can get and what the top team guys get. It's that way in all racing though. The gap in stock might be smaller though but it might even make a bigger difference when it's stock. |
Keith, Reine couldn't charge what he charges for a "Stock" motor if there wasn't any amount of difference between his top dog and what goes out the door. The BIG difference between a top level pro and Joe karter, is mainly driving ability (Duh) and his tuning, from what I here, he's a master at tuning, besides a master engine builder. I can personally tell you that when mod was the rage, the "factory" guys got exactly what the other guys got, they got personally answers to questions, but the parts were the same.
Tyson, Sperience!!!!
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Randy Pierson
Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 232
Location: United States, Minnesota, Avon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! I should get a stock moto! They are only 6 grabs a piece and the quality is amazing! All the engines are exactly the same!!!
Too bad Fantasy Island isn't on TV anymore  |
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Jeff DeMello
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 2219
Location: United States, Pittsburgh Pa,
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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What's 6 grabs a piece??? When I got my stock Honda around 2005-6 I paid $2100.00 complete from JR. Radiator not included. Now I see people paying ridiculous amounts for them.. I do know that the driver is the biggest factor in stockhonda or any other class. My cr125 was the most maintenance free engine I have ever owned. And I rebuilt it myself after initial purchase.
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Jeff DeMello
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Randy Pierson
Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 232
Location: United States, Minnesota, Avon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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That Kool Aid just keeps flowing.....  |
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Vernon Head
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 456
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Stock or mod, KT100 or shifter, engine builders are going to make money. Anyone who is trying to win races is going to try to get that last fraction of a hp, even if it costs a bundle. Even at the club level I have seen countless thousands of dollars spent on chassis, motors, tires, etc. to win. Then the guy who wins brags about how his motor was never worked on and his tires are worn out. |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy Pierson wrote: | | That Kool Aid just keeps flowing..... |
It's not how much more you gain from having one built correctly, it's how much you lose for not....
"SwedeTech Racing assembles Stock Engine to SKUSA specifications , Blue Print Crank, and Match Power Valve Stuffers. All parts are checked for legality and proper tolerance."
If a hand picked cylinder or CDI box makes a difference, that's available to anybody, buy a dozen and check them....
CR
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"This is how we roll!"
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Keith Bridgeman
Joined: 24 Aug 2001
Posts: 1348
Location: United States, Minnesota, Farmington
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Chris you just put yourself in a box. Your right. Anyone can buy 20 cylinders and pick the best one. I can't do that but a large engine builder can. Those best parts make the best engine which goes to the guys that win. Makes sense doesn't it. That sells engines. I get whatever was in the kit and of course it's put together perfectly and I get support but there is a difference. HRC has done this in super bikes and motocross for as long as they have been racing. If you can why not do it.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith Bridgeman wrote: | | Chris you just put yourself in a box. Your right. Anyone can buy 20 cylinders and pick the best one. I can't do that but a large engine builder can. Those best parts make the best engine which goes to the guys that win. Makes sense doesn't it. That sells engines. I get whatever was in the kit and of course it's put together perfectly and I get support but there is a difference. HRC has done this in super bikes and motocross for as long as they have been racing. If you can why not do it. |
That's not what HRC has done. I know for a fact because I've been there, pitted next to Al Ludington when he worked on the bikes,among other people as well. The "factory" guys get motors built by HRC, and the talk is that the parts are "limit of tolerance" parts, meaning they were run off for these special motors only. They meet all the specs, but are on the outer limits. An off the shelf part would be on the low side to somewhere in the middle. They are sealed motors, they get pulled from the bikes and crated back to HRC to get refreshed.
As far as hand picking parts, somebody is paying the bill if that is indeed what he's doing, he's not in it to give away parts...
So if your talking hand picked parts, it's from the low side of the tolerance to the middle somewhere at most. Not a whole lot, I can't see that adding up to much.
If that's what you think makes the difference, get 12 buddies to buy cylinders, send me a stock moto, I'll do the dyno work for free....
CR
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East Coast Super Kart Series
"This is how we roll!"
www.eastcoastsuperkart.webs.com
CR2 Motorsports
"Home of Cobalt Superkarts"
www.CR2MotorSports.webs.com
Last edited by Chris Reinhardt on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total |
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