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Adam Bray
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:20 am Post subject: Newb questions about stock 125 moto karts |
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Hello, I'm new to the forum and kart racing and just doing some research into shifter karts. I noticed that all the stock motors are all Hondas (from what I have seen), and seem to be year 1999 engines. Why not 2008 (or whatever year the last of the CR was). Is there anything preventing someone from pulling a motor from say a 2007 Kawasaki KX 125 and using that, or a newer CR motor?
I would think that one would want a fresh motor as possible. Just curious why they seem to be 1999? That's 13 years old. I would think that eveyone would be wanting 2008. (I think that was the last year of the CR).
Thanks.
-A |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2951
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: |
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A few facts for you....
Honda stopped production on 6 speed transmissions in 1997, the 5 speed box was not suitable for karting. A gentlemen named JR Clasen got together with someone at Honda parts department and came up with a "kit" motor which is basically a 1999 complete CR125 motor with a 1997 6 speed gearbox, all in pieces.
That kit is what was used to build modified Honda's until somebody had the brilliant idea (SKUSA Pro Tour) that ICC's motors were going to be more cost effective to run, and nearly killed shifter karts in the USA.
OK then somebody came up with a stock motor concept and since the Honda CR125 was such a popular engine before the ICC mess, they decided to use that format. So they went back to the "kit" and that's where the stock Honda comes from. Some orgs also allow the 2000 top end.
Let the flames begin......
CR
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Brian Degulis
Joined: 13 Aug 2012
Posts: 452
Location: United States, Florida,
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:22 am Post subject: |
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You need that combination to run the spec Honda class because that's the way it's been set up. Around here (FL) local clubs run moto (bike engine) and ICC (dedicated kart engine) together. So pretty much any 125CC engine is legal. I run an 2001 KX125 and it's competitive with the spec Honda's
Brian |
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Steve Eady
Joined: 26 Jul 2001
Posts: 956
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:23 am Post subject: cr125 |
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Adam
Just like Chris said, the engines are brand new just a mix of year of parts the suit karting best. 97 tranny, 99cylinder-head and electronics, cases 2000. SKUSA allows the cylinder to be 97-2001. But the electronics 99 only.
Steve @ www.extremegokarts.com |
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Clark Gaynor
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 540
Location: United States, Pennsylvania,
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Brian, like Chris stated, it's a spec engine class. And throughout the US, all rules are more or less the same, with very little differences between orgs.
The mod moto/ latest ICC formula was slowly killing shifter kart racing. ICC's tend to be pretty pricey, and new motors are introduced every few years. The mod motos got nuts, to say the least!!! Changing pistons every day, and a crank every three events was more then most folks could deal with.
Soooo, Stock Honda really took off, more or less Nation wide. We road race about five or six events per season. With roughly 1.5 to 2 hours per event at sustained high RPMs. We run a piston an entire season, and put a crank in it every two. There is NO way we could have done that in our old mod days!! Right Chris??!! 
If you plan on getting a new motor for you kart-- get a Stock Honda. As Chris noted, a "Honda CR125, 1999 Kit" motor.
Have a good day,
Clark Sr. |
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Brian Degulis
Joined: 13 Aug 2012
Posts: 452
Location: United States, Florida,
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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What he asked was why do I need this specific set up. I told him you need that to run Honda spec class. Then I told him that around here there are lots of local clubs that don't insist on a spec Honda. It's important for a new comer to know that you can go racing without spending 12K on a kart. It's also important to know that if you want to race on a national level you'll need a lot of experience and money to even begin to compete. So it's a good thing that a new comer can spend around 3K or even less have a blast racing with local clubs get some experience then decide if he want's to move up.
Brian |
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2763
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: |
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It really depends a lot on where you are racing and what the tracks offer. Brian nailed it, a lot of clubs are happy that you are there racing a kart and having fun. In that case, run whatever you can get the best deal on and don't get too sucked up by the stock moto concept.
The "Stock" honda package is a mix of parts from different years. For the most part 99 bottom end and crank, 99 ignition, 97 transmission, and depending on the org 99-01 cylinder. I think it was around '00 '01 when they came up with the package. Honda have been producing new parts for these kits. Sometimes items like cylinders and ignition CDI boxes can end up backorderd But I haven't heard a lot of that of late. How long Honda will keep producing the parts for this kit is anyone's guess. I think with the CRF250 kart package on the horizon the writing is on the wall. There's a lot of naivety regarding this IMO.
If the tracks you intend running offer a fairly open shifter class you could run a later CR (or likely any MotoX motor) if you like. The CR package is the most popular of the motos so is the easiest to bolt on and go. TM and YZ moto packages are around too and arguably perform better than a typical CR125 Stock Honda package.
You'll draw your own conclusions as people chime in, but I'll say this much. Stock Honda isnt as as cheap as its made out to be by many. Also, ICC/KZ motors aren't nearly as expensive or a fragile as uninformed will tell you. You can run either on a budget. Beware of the cool aid drinkers on both "sides".
A good used stock honda package ranges from $2500-$4000 depending on who's selling it and how many cylinders they have tried out.
A CR125 kit (you assemble) is about $2300. For the kit you will need to get a pipe, silencer, mount, other ancillary bits and possibly do a carb "pumparound" conversion or buy a converted model.
Fully assembled, ready to bolt on packages start at $3900 and go up to $6000 or more depending how "gourmet" you want to get.
Where are you located, what kind of classes are offered at the tracks you plan running? Also, what's your racing experience?
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Keith Bridgeman
Joined: 24 Aug 2001
Posts: 1348
Location: United States, Minnesota, Farmington
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Adam, you just need to put that the stock honda is a 14 year old engine, out of your mind and call it brand new. Once your past that step your good to go.
People on here always bring up that SKUSA's switch to ICC in 03 killed shifters. Those people forget that it was Stars that did that for SKUSA. Stars had huge ICC grids for almost 5 years. Then the economy changed and we have what we have now for better or worse. They wouldn't want to mention that though. To busy selling.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2951
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Keith Bridgeman wrote: |
People on here always bring up that SKUSA's switch to ICC in 03 killed shifters. |
Maybe because it's true? 
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Last edited by Chris Reinhardt on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9532
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Degulis wrote: | What he asked was why do I need this specific set up. I told him you need that to run Honda spec class. Then I told him that around here there are lots of local clubs that don't insist on a spec Honda. It's important for a new comer to know that you can go racing without spending 12K on a kart. It's also important to know that if you want to race on a national level you'll need a lot of experience and money to even begin to compete. So it's a good thing that a new comer can spend around 3K or even less have a blast racing with local clubs get some experience then decide if he want's to move up.
Brian |
Just as long as they know that any money they spend on something like a KX is totally wasted if they want to move up or even if they move to a different region. Newbies should also know that they can get tons of support for their Honda from local shops all the way to national builders. Run some other motor and you get?
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scot smith
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 38
Location: United States, New York, lake george
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam, where are you located and what tracks do you have nearby. Have you been to a track and have you seen a Shifter Kart race there? Do you know what an ICC/KZ motor these people mention are? Just trying to gather some background so you can get the info that will help you the most/best. |
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Rob Kozakowski
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Canada, Alberta, Edmonton
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Clark Gaynor wrote: | The mod moto/ latest ICC formula was slowly killing shifter kart racing. ICC's tend to be pretty pricey, and new motors are introduced every few years. The mod motos got nuts, to say the least!!! Changing pistons every day, and a crank every three events was more then most folks could deal with.
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Nailed it! It wasn't just ICC / KZ that was hurting shifter racing.
If you were a serious racer, the ICC/KZ had 2 downsides. 1) Upgrading to the latest spec every 3 year homologation period, meant buying all-new equipment every 3 years. 2) Replacing parts at the rate the most serious guys will do (preventive maintenance) is expensive, especially when the parts themselves are more expensive for the ICC / KZ.
The fact was that a less-serious racer could run these things (even an older-spec) on a virtual shoe-string budget at the club level, and win or be very competitive. The level of preventive maintenance done by the serious guys wasn't necessary for the club guys because these were very well-built engines. The downsides of the ICC / KZ package shouldn't scare a club racer, even today.
If you were a serious racer, the Mod Moto had 2 downsides, as well. 1) Development wasn't based on a 3-year cycle, it was actually worse, because it was continuous. Some people seem to forget how expensive that is! 2) These things were stressed so much that preventive maintenance was the same thing as regular maintenance. Parts were cheaper, but you went through a lot of them, whether you wanted to or not.
Mod moto really wasn't a good option for a club racer because the rate of parts replacement was far too high.
Alas, as has already been explained, the Spec Honda format arrived, and I have to give it a lot of credit because it has been good for American shifter kart racing.
For whatever reason, what is done at the top levels of karting has a direct impact on what is done at lower levels.
Mod Moto was very expensive at the top level, and it was way too expensive at the lower levels. Mod moto killed off the club shifter racers. ICC / KZ was too expensive at the top level, even though it was very reasonable at the club level. As it died at the top level, the club-level followed, even if it actually worked at that level. The great thing with the Spec Honda is that it works at BOTH the top level and at the club level.
For Adam, as a newbie, I'd say he's got 3 "real" options, depending on what he's allowed to run close to home, assuming he only wants to go club or maybe regional racing:
1) Go Spec Honda - new or used. It'll be more expensive to get into, but the only reason for that is because it is accepted everywhere, so supply and demand drives up the value of these things. Used ones are easy to sell. It won't break the bank after you buy it.
2) Go used ICC / KZ / TAG-ICC / TAG-KZ. Less demand means lower cost on truly great used equipment. Perhaps the best bang for the buck in karting these days. They're really not that expensive to run at the club level. Just don't go new, because you'll never get "true" fair value back for it. That said, you'll always be able to sell it.
3) Go with whatever stock engine package YOU like or can get a good deal on. If you're a die-hard Kawasaki guy, get a KX. TM makes a great moto engine for kart racing. If you can get a great deal on a YZ, go ahead. Etc. You just might have a hard time selling it if you tire of it.
Just for the love of God, stay away from the Mod Motos. They're fast and cheap to buy these days, but you'll quickly end up eating up any of those savings with the rate you'll burn through parts. |
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Keith Bridgeman
Joined: 24 Aug 2001
Posts: 1348
Location: United States, Minnesota, Farmington
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Well said Rob.
I remember back in the mod moto days never catching up. I swear I was sold the next intake or pipe or ignition that was the it thing. A month later that stuff was all old news and the teams had moved on to something else. It was very frustrating.
I've ran many different KZ engines from CRS to TM to Maxter and have never had one single issue that was the engines fault. They have all been fantastic. The only downside is the year end rebuild costs are to high. But the used market right now is awesome.
I've ran stock motos also, good engine, no issues other then the fuel system a little bit. Not as fun to drive as a KZ. Back a few years ago the big talking point was that you could build your own stock moto and it would be just the same as the fastest national engine. I don't think so now, it might be close but not close enough.
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Brian Degulis
Joined: 13 Aug 2012
Posts: 452
Location: United States, Florida,
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | | Brian Degulis wrote: | What he asked was why do I need this specific set up. I told him you need that to run Honda spec class. Then I told him that around here there are lots of local clubs that don't insist on a spec Honda. It's important for a new comer to know that you can go racing without spending 12K on a kart. It's also important to know that if you want to race on a national level you'll need a lot of experience and money to even begin to compete. So it's a good thing that a new comer can spend around 3K or even less have a blast racing with local clubs get some experience then decide if he want's to move up.
Brian |
Just as long as they know that any money they spend on something like a KX is totally wasted if they want to move up or even if they move to a different region. Newbies should also know that they can get tons of support for their Honda from local shops all the way to national builders. Run some other motor and you get? |
A ton of support for KX or any popular bike engine especialy if you don't have to alter it to put it on a kart. By the time most are ready to move up you won't like anything you have now. So you sell it to some other new guy and get something else with the knowledge you've gained and probably make a much better choice based on your own experience than you would based on the experiences of others.
I'm not sure why it is but it seems like every time you see a new guy come on the scene with a brand new shinny 12K shifter he's always a knucklehead and sometimes dangerous. Most say never start in shifter and I don't have that opinion but I don't think it's wise to run out and get the latest and greatest without first seeing what it's all about. Luckily you can go racing on a very modest budget have a blast get some experience make some freinds and get great advice from the low budget crowd without the ego's. Which in itself is a beautiful thing.
Brian |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9532
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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It does not cost $12k to buy a stock moto. And the savings by going to some other motor might (might) be $1k. BFD.
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