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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1989
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Larry Andrews wrote: | Bernie - didn't realize that you were next to me last year, wish I did... And thanks for not laughing openly at my tow rig.  I fully recognize that I have that one coming.
I'll also own that I let the oil get too low and realize that my mistake killed my motor. ALso will defer to the experts on the rod but it still seems like it could be made more robustly - an opportunity for improvement. <shrug>
It's hard to know where the line is between 'good enough' and 'could be better' and I think it's safe to say that each of us may interpret it differently. |
One reason not to use a bearing shell on these rods is it takes up extra material that could be used for strength instead. Sure there's a potential cost savings in using one with bearing shells but in practice it's fairly small, the WF rod is about $70 and bearing shells are about $20 so for an extra $50 you get the confidence that the most highly stressed part in your engine is brand new. Even the crank is only $80 so why mess around with it?
The WF has remained essentially the same with only durability improvements (other than the PVL) since it's inception. I really don't know why it's not more popular with sprint racers but maybe that will change someday. I understand they even run them at PKRA now so miracles can happen 
Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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Bernie Lacotta
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| John Matthews wrote: | | Larry Andrews wrote: | Bernie - didn't realize that you were next to me last year, wish I did... And thanks for not laughing openly at my tow rig. I fully recognize that I have that one coming.
I'll also own that I let the oil get too low and realize that my mistake killed my motor. ALso will defer to the experts on the rod but it still seems like it could be made more robustly - an opportunity for improvement. <shrug>
It's hard to know where the line is between 'good enough' and 'could be better' and I think it's safe to say that each of us may interpret it differently. |
One reason not to use a bearing shell on these rods is it takes up extra material that could be used for strength instead. Sure there's a potential cost savings in using one with bearing shells but in practice it's fairly small, the WF rod is about $70 and bearing shells are about $20 so for an extra $50 you get the confidence that the most highly stressed part in your engine is brand new. Even the crank is only $80 so why mess around with it?
The WF has remained essentially the same with only durability improvements (other than the PVL) since it's inception. I really don't know why it's not more popular with sprint racers but maybe that will change someday. I understand they even run them at PKRA now so miracles can happen
Cheers, |
John,WF is by far the largest class now at PKRA. (thank you very much) A lot of very happy (and new) racers.
As far as the rods go,the only issue I've seen on the WF rod is when the racer does not follow proper guidelines in reference to oil. It's not a place to save money or try to make that extra .0001 HP ! I've NEVER seen a WF rod fail (without an oil problem) ,I have seen a number of aftermarket billet rods with bearing inserts break. Note that I did not say I've heard of such breakage but that I personally witnessed such breakage. That dissing any product ,just reporting real life observations.
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Larry Andrews
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 2848
Location: United States, California, SC Mtns
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| John Matthews wrote: | | Even the crank is only $80 so why mess around with it? |
Perhaps it's the surprise factor, the fact that it's hard to know how not to step in the poo in the dark. Like I said, I'll own that I let excitement get the best of me and didn't check the oil level often enough...having said that:
None of the Briggs manuals I've got say anything about oil incompatibility. How does a new guy find out about this? Y'all brought up the topic without providing any specifics.
Most of the builders I know recommend a bit less than the recommended amount of oil, ostensibly to reduce power losses. I've been quoted numbers from 11 to 18 ounces. Think it's safe to say that people are trying stuff.
And, insult to injury, not one of the clones blew up last year at the SW enduro and I know at least two Briggs motors failed. I had to get back to work and didn't stick around for the end of the race since mine was done.
So please pardon me if I opine that I'd like to see a more robust package based on industry standard solutions that 'increase durability'. Kinda doubt that anyone gives a rat's what some broke guy with almost zero free time that's goofing around on the internet thinks, but thanks for engaging me on this one. |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1989
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Hi Larry,
Does the SC in your location stand for Santa Cruz mountains?
I'm from Cupertino and grew up running through the mountains to the beach on bikes and cars 
I looked up a thread from years past that deals with this issue.
http://ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=85294&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
There are at least 4 of the best 4 cycle engine builders in the country chiming in here. If you want the story on oils and why Briggs has their own oil, now for the second time I'd encourage you to drop Dave Klaus a PM. Suffice it to say that they find the issue extremely frustrating but like any business there are things they discuss in public and those they don't.
The general consensus though is don't mix oils unless you know what they're made of. If you want more info than that contact a chemist, I won't try to explain it
But Briggs does sell oil for a reason....
Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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mike best
Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 57
Location: Australia, not USA,
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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A number of the WFs at our local track here in Australia ran into issues.
The problem was discussed - at length - on the 4-stroke site
http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?t=426360
Maybe something in there will help.
Mike |
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Richard Hemingway
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:32 pm Post subject: Valve Lash |
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| Have you tried resetting the Valve Lash to the parameters recommended in the Briggs World Formula manual? I had this same problem until I reset the Valve Lash and it pulls nice and easy now.. |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1989
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:06 am Post subject: |
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I think the problem persisted after he pulled the head 
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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Max Wood
Joined: 19 Sep 2001
Posts: 704
Location: United States, New York, Rochester
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey Scott - What was the outcome? |
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Scott Boito
Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 261
Location: United States, Tennessee, Kingsport
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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I never got the silly side cover off due to the corrosion build-up on the end of the crank by the taper and the bearing wouldn't pass over it. However I learned enough about the motor to realize that the rod end was where the problem was. A friend is going to rebuild with a new crank and rod and new bearings, seals, and gaskets where necessary. Expensive, but it will be essentially new when done.
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BetterOffRacing
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Scott Boito
Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 261
Location: United States, Tennessee, Kingsport
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: |
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And then FedEx screwed me twice in one day.  First the driver must have dropped it or smashed it while it was on the truck - and then didn't even attempt delivery. And to top it off, they put it back on a truck to my friend without consulting me. They actually did it while I was on the phone with them trying to get it delivered and then said they couldn't undo it. So I'm without a motor for the first event of the season. Luckily my friend is allowing us to borrow one of his while we figure out what happened to ours so we may still get to run this weekend after all. But what a hassle. And what a stupid way to do business by FedEx. I may get a new motor out of this after all...
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KM #68 - Haase/Honda kart
BetterOffRacing
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1989
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Fedex is my shipper of choice but you can have problems with anyone if your engine isn't packed right. Most people (even packing store employees) don't get it right in my experience.
Lots of wadded up newspaper, cardboard reinforcement and don't skimp on the tape. Make sure you're using a real American ASTM box that's rated for the weight you're shipping otherwise you won't have a claim. I've had cheap Chinese boxes literally fall apart when I tried to use them.
My favorite engine shipping boxes are the heavy duty attached lid storage crates (not to be confused with the light weight see through ones) like this.
They always threaten to charge extra for them but it's worth the expense as far as I'm concerned. Briggs used to ship their engines in a similar box and it's the best way to go by far.
Also any oil leaking will get it returned to sender ASAP 
Let me know if there's anything I can do....
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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