Testing The Waters

[Justin Martin]

I am currently working out the design phase of a KERS system for Tag Karts. If I can find supercapacitors, and a 300 amp rectifier in a reasonable pricerange I will be able to make a system that weighs 15-25 pounds, and will haev an available 3-5 seconds of electric boost. The "boost" will be between 8-13 horsepower, which will be an added 20-30% increase in power for a brief time out of a corner, etc.

I have available to me some 100-150kv motors designed to run 40-50v at 150-200 amps. These motors can produce between 8-20 horsepower, and have relatively high torque. (designed to replace 150cc opposing gas engines for planes. You need slow, high torque to spin some of those props.)

The system will engage on a hydraulic clutch tied into a dual master cylinder brake system. In other words, the front brake master cylinder would control the engagement of the hydraulic clutch during power off braking (or electric motor jake brake.) This system would allow you to adjust the differential between your hydro rear brake and the electro-brake/generator. The power would go through an appropriate rectifier, into super capacitors, then out through the motor again when applied. To reduce any extra drag during, non electrically assisted, or electric generation, it would have a one way bearing in the opposite direction of the hyrdaulic clutch. This ensures instant engagement under electric power, and controlled engagement under braking.

This thread is going to be used as a tool to judge the amount of interest in the idea.

Would you all be interested?

I for one would think it would add that little bit of extra "strategy" to bump TaG to the next level (without being 80-125cc shifters...). Sometimes I miss banging gears, however I love TaG as a whole.

If it was possible to get this produced in the ~$800 range would you get it?

Would this style of TaG racing be of interest to any of you, for say a "Super TaG" class of such?

So let me know what you think!

[TJ Koyen]

It's a cool idea but on the whole it sounds way to complicated for kart racing. People already complain about the electronic starters cluttering up karts. This sounds like about a billion extra pieces that could break.

At $800, it's putting a typical TaG engine package (~3000) close to the range of KF or shifter pricing. KF is essentially already "Super TaG" and has been pretty much deemed too expensive for the US karting market to maintain, which is why it never caught on as a class here.

But like I said, it could be a cool thing to play with individually. As for having a real broad marketability, I don't see it.
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T.J. Koyen
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DB Motorsports
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[Justin Martin]

True, the extra expense could be a deal breaker.

The nice thing with pure electronics are they are generally pretty reliable. I am an aircraft electrician, and my aircraft use these types of components reliable for THOUSANDS of hours.

the set up would be completely separate from your current motor, therefore universal. It would use a stand off chain ring on the same side as your brake, and the electric motor would be mounted low on the chassis on the left side as well. The motor weighs about 5.5 pounds, so it would add around 8 pounds to the rear. However the the power would go through the 3 phase rectifier on the side, leading to the capacitor up front.

Knowing that most of us use weight, and often need to add cross-weight the system should balance fairly well, and allow you to run usable weight, rather than dead lead.

Rectifiers, capacitors, and control units generally last for a very long time. The motor should last for a very long time as well, as long as we keep it inside its parameters. (This being said, the motor is designed to run at a much higher current, for 8-10 minutes. This design would run it at about 80% for 3-6 seconds)

It might seem scary, however I truly believe that these components are way more reliable than people give credit.

[Jim Derrig]

[Chris Hurst]

I think for karting it would be a fun thing to have just for track days, but for competition it's just another thing to drive the price of a TaG kart way up. It isn't likely it would even make it past the sanctioning bodies of karting fom what I've heard of guys in the 70s employing similar systems.

I would buy it as an enthusiast just to have another thing to mess around with, but if I knew everyone was buying them to be competitive it would really draw me away from spending the money unless I was so wealthy I didn't care about costs. Most karters are not ultra rich so money is a factor.

You should take this to Formula series that have a stake in green energy or being cutting edge / ultra competitive. If you could make this an affordable solution for F3 or GP2 or something like that so it mimics what the guys in F1 are doing I think you could not only find a place for your product, but make a lot more money in the process.

Maybe even try to market it to time attack guys who compete in unlimited class racing?

It sounds like a really cool idea and I would love to see it and drive a kart with it, I just think the karting market wouldn't provide the support you're looking for.

[Justin Martin]

Thanks for the input guys!

The Idea and basis of the system is to weigh in approximately at the average weight in lead that most karters have to add.

The package Idea (if it ever went into production) would be a system consisting of 4 parts. Motor, Power source, Clutch and Control system.

It would be designed to be a bolt on, low maintenance, fun addition. If problems ever arose the parts could be purchased individually.

Currently I have at hand the available motor, 3phase rectifier, and control system**. I am still trying to source an applicable Capacitor light and strong enough for a 5 second burst at 150-180a, and 50v.

The reason for the needed control system/box, is that the motor in use will be a brushless motor (therefore getting rid of tedious brushes, which are wear items). Brushless motors work "similarly" to a 3 cylinder motor. If you imagine the ignition on a motor, it is very similar. In a brushless motor it alternates pulses along 3 lines to 3 different phases of the motor. It is a relatively simple system used in the RC world very reliably. This system will have firmware which will apply 60% power up to 100% power in a linear gradient for the first half to three-quarters second. for the remaining time it will apply full power up to 5 seconds before cutting off.

I will continue work, in case there is a market. If not, then I will enjoy it. I do agree that the F1k and F2k classes would be a great market as well, however the production of "special" components would be needed. With the current Kart system all, or almost all parts would be readily sourcable from current electronic manufacturers.