Karting too advanced for its' own good?

[Oscar Aguilera]

i have raced for a long time. i have promoted events and worked in every place workers do at a track.. i even announced races. i have seen it all! street race, road course, temp course. .5 mile tracks on up! and i have raced just about every popular class for the time period i was in. i have traveled out side the country to race a kart! ive been racing since i was 18 and just this past weekend i raced a shifter. stock 125 of course.

its funny that some have mentioned the KT100 when that motor was the key reason that shifters and later tags were considered the new in thing. we all wanted to get away from the yamahas since the motor quality control meant buying 20 cylinders to find the right one.

to me everything has to feed itself. meaning the track, the announcer, the classes, the kart rental, the school, etc... they all have to be part of the picture for karting to grow. getting a briggs or a honda go kart that could be bought at sams or walmart to be a race ready kart from when you buy it....would be the next venture i would pursue. race on saturday nights. get the track to have well prepared food (for track type standards) then you could get a small parking or cover charge.

as for the racing kart itself...you can have the best of both worlds...the past and present mixed. you could use a current leopard, take the clutch off and starter and race a 14-18 year old pro type class with sticky tires direct drive. make it light. use side nerf bars with a flat number panel. lets keep the front fairng and get rid of the rear bumper.

get a chonda class going, and some shifters. throw in the kids and cadets. keep the s5 class as well.

feature a walmart race ready kart class...( the rental fleet) as a drawind based class with a title sponsor so that fans get to race them...not karters.

i do believe the karts of today are easier to use...are they perfect? nope. but the rule makers dont get it...or stay in bed with motor/tire manuf that give money for making their product the "spec"

its that all important end of the year banquet someone mentioned earlier.

i really believe that with the US grand prix karting will rise again. we had more road racing in the past when andretti and others were in their hay day.

and yes harder tires for all classes except maybe the class they you want to deam the "fast guys". drivers want grip but most of these same guys' body cant handle the load of stress they will go thru.

you want passing...with todays wide tracks...pea pick and invert the start of the second heat....then score points for the final grid line up. it would eliminate the need for the timing system or at least for transponders for racers.

if kart shops really wanted to help newbies...they would set the kart up to the specs of there own fast guy and tell the customer to leave the kart alone for the first few races. show up to the track and give seminars on how to.

there just isnt enough financial stake in profit to find one individual to carrry all these things out.

in all fairness i dont know of any racing that requires a license at the amatuer level that is a significant learning period. putting an x an starting at the back is about as good as it gets and IMO all that is needed. you have to start somewhere and you have to be with other karts.

the death of the yamaha IMO was the ban of the axle clutch in the pipe class.

oh well...until i win the lottery which i keep forgetting to enter...i cannot prove my theory. i know it will work. there are already many successful tracks/clubs out there with out all this. im in texas and it is 5 hour drive to the next closest track from houston to dallas area. so it is not like we have many tracks. but maybe that is why katy has been around for so long. and road racing is pretty much dead in our area.

just my opinion.

[Justin Martin]

This will sound strange to many of you, But I believe Karting needs to step away from "karting."

I say this because I started racing motorcycles at 4 years old, after many many years we got into karting, and I karted all the way into racing 80cc shifters on an old track magic chassis. Karting led into Supermoto, which I immediately excelled in. Supermoto lead into racing mountainbikes (originally from training) which soon lead into racing nationally, while sponsored by a full blown factory team. Long story short, I was in the middle of my aerospace engineering degree and ran out of money, so I enlisted in the USAF, got stationed in Arizona, and missed competition so here I am racing Rotax.

My impressions being back into Karting; It is overly expensive, and highly under-estimated.

I look at karting prices, and see a Rotax FR125 Radiator go for $300! I can replace both radiators (two sides, both about the size of the Rotax) on a dirt bike for about $170... thats close 25% o the cost of the Rotax!

This being said, I know it is a smaller market than Moto's which inevitably drives up prices....

The size and popularity of Karting I believe is entirely to blame on rental karts. More often than not Rental Karts are what people see in their mind when you mention "racing karts." This leads into those long conversations about how fun and exciting karting is, yet in their mind they still see rental karts! Now they have this mislead vision of karting, so when they hop into a race kart, they are not thinking seriously. It is either over whelming, or they get hurt.

In the motorcycle world protection, and the bike is taken seriously. We don't have people who just say "hey lets go take a 600 on the track without leathers, a helmet, etc..."

This being said, "race karts" need to separate themselves from "rental karts." I believe if "race karts" distance themselves they might be taken seriously, such as moto's which will lead into the PROPER interest of people. Newbies will understand they are getting into an insanely high performance race machine, just as they would if they stepped on a 450cc dirt bike. If rental mo-peds were advertised the same way as karts, then no one would take a 450cc dirt bike seriously either...

I do NOT believe that we need to take a step back towards KT100's and other older motors. Less performance does NOT do anything for separating race karts from rentals.

Personally I think Redbull is on to something. They have tons of indoor karters who sign up. They start in standard slow rental karts, yet by the end they are driving Birel race chassis, and are concerned with proper chassis tuning, clean racing, etc.

[Greg Wright]

[Billy Smith]

[Oscar Aguilera]

[John Matthews]

Well put Oscar.

I think you make the OP's point exactly. If the value proposition of karting as it is now doesn't work for people they will go elsewhere. The only practical way to change that is by changing the equipment and facilities.


Billy, please post your mylaps results for all the "nancyboys" to see.

Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[Greg Wright]

[Billy Smith]

[Justin Martin]

I would agree for sure.

How is TaG any more complex? I would much rather run a TaG tan have to start a kart on the stand, and keep it running while trying to get it down etc....

If anything TaG has made racing easier.... No BS off Kart starter, Off kart starter batteries etc...

Okay, so now you have to charge the onboard battery? Big deal.

Karting is no more difficult than racing Motocross or Supermoto!

I think TaG is a great start. It isn't insanely fast or too much going on at once like a shifter. It is just fast enough for most beginners.

Then, if it is TOO fast, there is Briggs.... AND its cheap! you can race all season for the cost of a TaG motor...

Truthfully if TaG parts came down in price (closer to the motorcycle world) that would be enough IMO....

[Greg Wright]

[Oscar Aguilera]

its a catch 22.


i kinda agree with the nancyboy theory...if you cant hang..you dont belong? but to make a kart appeal to spectators to want to get into is not the problem.

when someone sees a kart and like racing they are immediately interested. when they find out the cost....they are usually LESS interested.

the next problem is the motor selection...now they are hooked and have the $$$...where to start. it depends on where you live? it depends on what shop services what motor/chassis...it depends on your age...too many decisions and WE ALL KNOW THIS FOR A FACT OVER ALL THE YEARS OF KARTING THAT WE CAN GO BACK AND LOOK AT!

but the motors exist and someone wants to sell them...some club wants $$ in sponsors so we still have the problem.


so you get past all that...todays facilities are far more superior than in the past....so your hot wife, girlfriend/ mistress doesnt mind the restroom facilities....stands are nice and perferebly covered.


so you buy in...you read, you research, you have a good shop, there is plenty support...the people in the pits are helpful...you get out there an then the nancy boy reality hits.

a kart no matter what class is generally too much to handle....or way more to handle than anticipated.

"crap...this is tireing...i have to quit smoking...start working out,,,start running...start working on my kart more...everything comes loose...i dont know or have tools to work on this....i need someone here to lift...to push...to change tires....WHAT there is trick to changing tires?


and then the cycle begins....the stuff is up for sale...or they stick it out the average 3 years. if they are not so financially strapped...they keep the equipment ( knowing they can only sell it for pennies on the dollar) and tell stories of how fast this "little thing" goes to all there friends that come over on a weekend BBQ.


to me the tires and motor are the key. but the physical shape of the guy with the cash to buy in is usually not able to compete. the kids today are way bigger than when i started racing.


IMO as long as the tracks stay nice...and the racing is good...there is only a certain individual that will ever be in a kart and do well. and those individuals are of a special breed that will MOST LIKELY have a want to drive and move on to bigger things...whether they are faster or not...they will want to drive and race a CAR. the ones that have no means to move on ...or no oppurtunity...might stay around karts or return later when the finances pay off.

now where is that avator of the buy beating the dead horse that is animated and he does it over and over again?

if you are into karting...there is no problem with karting. you just have to decide to do it. it isnt easy no matter how small they look.

just my opinion

[Ted Hamilton]

When I started this thread, it was indicated that I meant people who enjoy karting for kartings' sake, not as a stepping stone. Mostly, meant people like me.

I grew up racing a vehicle like a kart, but it had wooden 2x2's for mainframe rails, a wooden body, and a 3.5hp or 6hp Tecumseh flathead driving the LR on a 1/10mi. asphalt oval. In that environment the racing was close and an emphasis was placed on driver strategy vs. economic ability. Sportsmanship, time with family, and the thrill of competition were paramount. IIRC, our first "microd" (MICro hotROD") cost around $400 to build new, including the Azusa karting rims and HARD tires.

I discovered quarter midgets and karts too, but was informed that they were "too dangerous" by people who had negative experiences. I eventually grew to the point of making my own decisions and decided otherwise, but my first kart experience wasn't until 2001, driving a Formula A Swiss Hutless with breadbox bodywork (IIRC) and a front fairing.

The more I looked into karting, the more I realized that karting had evolved quite a bit from its' roots. It seems karting started by Duffy Livinstone and his contemporaries as a low-buck diversion while they weren't racing their hgh-dollar sports cars. It was done in parking lots (at least at first), and speeds were relatively low due to the simple motor technology. The point was greater accessibility to the racing masses (and those who WANTED to be racing but otherwise couldn't afford to.)

I poured over library books about vintage karting (really older books written when it wasn't vintage...) and was struck at the innovation of some designers, but the adherence to the same simple core of tube frame and engine...

Even as I write this post, I wonder what's really changed. I think perhaps the biggest change I regret is that karting takes itself too seriously. For some, it will always be just a stepping stone. And for the F1 aficionados who think the design and fabrication of karts should be ever advancing, perhaps their interest isn't in the competition as in the engineering aspects.

For me, I'd rather see karting intentionally embrace simplicity, particularly since the average American male below the age of 40 is losing technical ability and gaining inches on the waistline. Simpler, slower karts lend themselves to more even competition, IMO. You can see that at work at virtually any rental kart track...

Now I'm not suggesting that karts should become more like their rental cousins -- bloat and weight work against the simplicity I think karting needs to rediscover.

I just think that the average karter should be the guy who throws a bare chassis in the back of his pickup after work, drives with a single toolbox and perhaps a spare motor and tires to the track, gets a buddy to help unload, then races his buddies and enjoys a beer (or soda for the younger crowd) afterward. I think the performance margin should still be high enough to require learned skills -- I enjoy racing against the track and myself as much as racing other people... but it shouldn't be so technical and subtle as to require tuners, the latest go-fast gadget, and a 40' trailer hauled by a medium duty class C motorhome (not for hire).

Simpler karts, simpler tracks, simpler experience all around, at the club level.

But actually require some licensing and proof of ability for regional and national level stuff -- I don't think karting should turn away the stepping-stone racers. Instead, I think karting should TARGET the hobbyist racer but ACCOMODATE the career-driven karter. And I think both would be better served by bare chassis, nerfs and bumpers only, air-cooled engines, and hard tires. But then again, I also idolize Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jochen Rindt, and Mark Donohue. Perhaps I was just born in the wrong decade and should stop lamenting about what karting seems to be (Billy's) instead of what it could be... Oh well. I'll sign off on my own thread now.
_________________
Owner, www.hamiltonhelmets.com // UAS Racer #76 // Karting for karting's sake...keep it fun!

[Cory Ross]

I do not see why the current karts you think not having a trailer and motor home means you cannot be competitive. You talk about throwing a kart into your pickup with a toolbox and maybe a spare motor, In TAG or Rotax I am curious as to why you think this is not possible?

I will admit to being new to karting, I will be racing in Rotax Max this summer and think the kart is very simple. Even the setup adjustments available are not all the complex. Looking at my kart and the motor(I only have about 2 years of experience with a 4 stroke 250 motorcycle and a month of a 2 stroke Rotax) I cannot even begin to think this thing is too advanced. It is incredibly simple and straight forward.

I am wondering if those that are saying karts are to advanced and should be more simple are the same people I have dealt with in my other forms of racing. They think that for some reason by not having the factory team gear they are at a instant disadvantage.

Karting is still very much a low buck version of racing. It is the reason I bought a kart, I can go racing fairly inexpensively. I could go race my DH mountain bike or motorcycle and for a weekend of racing the kart is only going to cost marginally more since the kart has four tires not two. As for costs from even minor on track incidents the motorcycle and bike can easily surpass the kart in costs. You do not even want to know the medical bills I have had from racing the mountain bike.

[Stu Hayner]

[Chris Hurst]

"If you are unable or unwilling to fight that fear until you become comfortable, then racing probably isn't for you."

Amen. I agree with that 100%.

I grew up street racing on canyon roads where I would regularly hit 80-110mph in a single lane on roads that were 20 feet at their widest with 172 corners in 10 miles. I went off a cliff at one point and was saved by a tree that broke my fall over a 500 foot cliff. Afterwards I went back to the same road and hit the same corner hundreds of times until I could nail it full throttle.

What brought me to karting initially was the fun guys were having, what kept me in the sport was the challenge and the physical demand. I started working out every day, driving as often as I could because I saw it as a challenge to make myself comfortable in an uncomfortable environment.

I got a job at a very well known karting school years later and I broke the track record in my third hour at work (by a considerable margin and I have since left the job) and all the instructors and the owner of the business were dumbfounded by my results. Some of which had been instructing for 8 years driving almost every day for hours.

When you come from an environment that tests your fear in the presence of danger you find out how far you can really go and what you are truly made of. You force yourself to progress.

This is not to say everyone should start out in a shifter, but I think karting no matter where you start is hard. The difference is who is willing to be uncomfortable and force themselves to learn the craft. Stepping up to the next level is always going to be a challenge in karting, in life, in one's personal endeavors etc.

I say go back to tighter tracks, no nerf bars etc and you'll sort out the pretenders from the men with real testicular fortitude and that will make for better experiences for the racers and the fans of the sport. Plain and simple.

Look at the new Corvette, it has an autoblip feature on a stick shift manual transmission so you don't have to know how to heel toe or rev match.

That to me says it all.