Euro V USA...durability

[Ashton Westenburg]

I have heard a lot of gripes about the durability of Euro chassis ie: they bend easily. I am excited about Birel and like MBA, BRM and CRG. Am I missing the boat and spending more money for less durability. Is the extra dough returned in added performance due to more flexible chassis from Europe?

[Oscar Aguilera]

The fast US chassis cost as much or more than the imported stuff. As for added performance for the dollar I would say yes.

[Kenny Bolen]

I have experienced both USA and Euro chassis and found that what you will be participating (class) is very important. Do you homework and look at the support of that chassis from the buyer or kart shop. Also ask those who are running chassis your are interested in. It's not an easy decision. I spent 6 months this year to select a shifter but feel very comfortable with my selection.

[Steve F]

Some the US manufacturer's use E4130 Chrome Moly Tubing (Trackmagic, Invader, and Emmick) for their chassis construction. It is considerably more expensive than DOM (drawn over mandrel tubing) and those that use Chromoly will advertise that they do. Chromoly tubing will have a much higher yield strength than most other steels. That means it can be stressed much higher before it is permenently deformed (from hitting curbs/accidents etc.

I dont know about its fatigue properties (as in twisting back and forth repeatedly), but considering it is used extensively throughout experimental and aerobatic airplanes, I would expect its fatigue properties are exceptionally good.

The European steel grading system is less structured than our ASTM standards here in the US. Do they have a tubing similar to 4130? I dont know. They may, but I've not seen the tubing type advertised.

What that means to us karters is that we typically dont know what kind of steel is used for the European chassis and how high a quality tubing it is. The strength of steels can vary significantly depending on its composition and manufacturing process.

I have had both European karts (TOP kart) and American, (Invader and Trackmagic). I have noticed that the Top kart chassis seemed to get more and more flexy with each season. ON the other hand, my Trackmagic Dragon has been just as predictable and feels the same after two seasons. The Trackmagic has been the best chassis I've ever owned. Its workmanship is (in my opinion of course) the finest avaiable in the US.

I agree with one of the other replies, chassis selection depends heavily on what class you intend to run, how long before you expect to replace the chassis, driver's weight etc.

Most kart chassis are designed relatively similar for their application. Unfortunately, a whole host of kart racers change from one manufacturer to the next each year just because someone on that chassis just happens to be winning at that time. Remember when Margay started selling thier Brava 1 with Jonathan Strohm at the helm? Brava sales went crazy. Three years later I haven't seen any Bravas hardly at all. Now its Scott Speed on the Tony Kart thats cleaning up in SKUSA. Does that mean that the Birels and Trackmagics are no longer any good? Hardly.

It takes a while to figure a new chassis out. I think you should consider what kind of service you'll get from your manufacturer in terms of setup advice and parts availablity. Personally I think the US manufacturers like Trackmagic are hard to beat.

[ron brolley]

I agree with Dis Jr. American chassis companies are not slackers. I run a Coyote Onyx w/ a yamaha pipe. Most people same Coyote is for 4 cycles, just look at gold cup results. If you work hard enough you can get any chassis to work competively. But most of all look at what local support you can get from shops and dealers.

P.S. The only other chassis I had was a CKS Quiksilver. Might I add CKS is a first class business.

[Steve F]

Mike,

Let me clarify, I've previously worked at a materials testing lab here in Atlanta. While I am not familiar with the European standards for steel manufacturing and testing, I can tell you that it is generally recongized around the world, that the American Standard of Materials and Testing is the most comprehensive testing Standards set forth. We have tested all sorts of materials from overseas (primarily Japan) to be approved to the ASTM standard here in the US.

When I purchase materials for my design projects, unless I ask for certifications, my supplier will send whatever he has in his inventory.

There is a remarkable amount of Chinese steel (and counterfeit bolts) being purchased in the US because it it less expensive. Is it tested to ASTM standards? Its supposed to be. How often samples are taken for testing is unknown to me. Most applications dont require certified materials because we tend to over-design everything for safety.

If I am building critical components (rollcages) or structures where failure could involve injury, you can bet your butt that I pay the extra money for the material that is certified.

Personally, I take a sample from every carbon fibre layup that I do, and test it to assure myself I've got the properties that I think I should have.

Mark's reply is the first instance where I had heard that European materials can be purchased with certifying spec sheets.

Sorry I if led you down the wrong path.

PS GO AMERICAN!!!!!

[John Denman]

Chassis and bending/weld cracking etc. can be a big variable.

Trackmagic seems to have a very robust chassis and I have seen none of them crack or bend. But they are tricky to set up too.

Margay has good welds, but have seen a few twist slightly. A little twisting is OK as long as it takes a lot of use to do it. A chassis can be straightened fairley easiliy.

I have seen a few Emmicks crack welds. Don't know about twisting.

Not familiar with other American chassis.

I have a Tony Esprit that has cracked a weld, but I like the chassis and would buy another. No twisting on this 2 year old chassis.

I have seen some Birels bend, but that was after impact that probably would have bent any other brand.

I am sure the CRG, VMT, PCR, Top Kart, MBA, BRM, karts are all of good quality as well.

[Ian Jones]

I don't know much about euros. I've had one Emmick and three Trackmagic chassis. Trackmagic is a high quality chassis I think. I can also add that I developed a small crack on the second frame I had from Trackmagic. I called and talked about the crack(which I had already TIG welded). George asked to see the frame so I brought it to him. I asked if this happened often and he said "no". It was only a hair line crack and I thought it might be pretty regular given the stresses involved. In other words I was skeptical, but in the blink of an eye he offered me a new frame. That's a good way to earn customer loyalty and is the extreme of standing behind your product given that there's no warranty and he didn't have to give me squat.

[Mark Dismore Jr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Westenburg:
I have heard a lot of gripes about the durability of Euro chassis ie: they bend easily. I am excited about Birel and like MBA, BRM and CRG. Am I missing the boat and spending more money for less durability. Is the extra dough returned in added performance due to more flexible chassis from Europe?

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Not to toot my own horn or anything of that nature but we have spent a good hard year of pure R&D of materials, components, tubing, and chassis design including all the numbers, front track, rear track, wheelbase, etc. I have changed and built more prototypes than I care to admit. It got to the point where they were ready to shoot the engineer (me) to build the kart. The list of stuff to try is endless really. But I did finally pin down our final production design and I couldn't be happier with it, it has been easy to adjust, setup, fast and user friendly as can be. But I haven't stopped designing, in fact my desk is covered in paper full of design changes to try and prototype designs that hopefully will be a 2003 chassis or so. It's an on going process for sure but it is hard to come up with something that is so much better to neccesitate a design change. I would think a kart would have to be day in and day out atleast a tenth and half faster to do this. Just because you bring designs out all the time doesn't mean you have accomplished anything. European companys are stuck to a 3 year chassis freeze but they don't stop designing and trying new ideas that they will incorporate later in their designs and we do the same.

Tubing manufacturers have what is called a certification sheet, it is the spectral and metalurgical analysis of the tubing. I have about 12 different cert sheets from different tubing manufacturers all over the world. The tubing we ended up with is a German Chromoly tubing. All tubing differs so we buy the complete run (around 5,000 ft I believe) so all our chassis for pretty much the whole year are built from the same batch of tubing. I have the cert sheets from a few european chassis, and the material they use is the same as what we use on our karts. One process we do on our karts is tig welding and this actaully is a strss relieving welding, sort of like heat treating. Robot welders are a mig weld and don't get this kind of stress relieving, that's why we stick with tig. As far as durability of the chassis, the european companys switched to chromoly in the early 90's and dropped the mild steel which has dramatically raised the durability of their frames. In fact most european frames run a very thick wall thickness so the kart are very strong. I have a hard time with the european karts thought of as superior ro american karts. It's all R&D. You would be amazed at what moving tubes a 1/4 or 1/2" does to the overall feel and results of a chassis. This season we traveled all over the country (sometimes not even to a race, just to test) and I have yet to see a kart just to be flat superior to us. Sure I've missed the setup (who hasn't) but day in and day out I don't see it. The american kart companys got caught with our pants down a few years ago, I'll be flat honest. But we have stepped up our program along with Margay, Emmick, Invader and Trackmagic in the last couple years. I think the next 3 or 4 years you will see a resurrgence in american built chassis. It's not just a european thing either, the Arrow kart from Australia has done well this year as well so I think a good kart can be built anywhere. There are some things the european kart companys and chassis do very well and then there are somethings I really question, but hey it's the same with Ford vs. Chevy.

So in closing don't be sure that a european chassis is the only choice out there. We (american manufacturers in general) don't bother building a chassis with the time, headaches and challenge that is involved for nothing. We do it because we know we can offer a superior product. That is what we are always working toward. As well, we try to be innovative and unique, and I see more uniqueness in american built chassis than european. It's easy to import a chassis and sell it but I think that's the easy way to do it, I really enjoy working with a chassis and trying new ideas and designs. It's exciting and fun, and after all the hardwork is done we have something we can be proud of.

Mark

[Mike Goebel]

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve F:

The European steel grading system is less structured than our ASTM standards here in the US. Do they have a tubing similar to 4130? I dont know.

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So you know that there system is less structured but you don't know if they have 4130 equivalents. Oh brother.

Mike G.

[Steve F]

Ian is right on the mark with Trackmagic's customer service. We had a teammate suffer a pretty nasty wreck that broke the spindle mount clean off at the junction weld between the spindle mount and the tubing.

I inspected the weld, and to me, it appeared to have the crystallization appearance indicative of (maybe) too much heat during the TIG welding process. Welding 4130 is not for amateurs, it can become brittle if it is overheated, or cooled too quickly in open air.

We shipped the frame to Trackmagic. George inspected the chassis, and even though the weld had broken during a crash, he offered us a new Diablo frame at a much more than reasonable rate. I doubt you'll get that kind of service from any of the European manufacturer's.

Incidentally, we've been running Trackmagics in shifter and yamaha classes for several years and have not seen any other chassis related problems.

[Mark Dismore Jr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Goebel:


So you know that there system is less structured but you don't know if they have 4130 equivalents. Oh brother.

Mike G.

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We use condition N Military spec 4130 but it is a German tubing so europe does have 4130 tubing. In fact most tubing I looked at that had the element %'s I wanted were foreign tubing.

Mark

[David Mayhew]

quote:

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Originally posted by John Denman:

Margay has good welds, but have seen a few twist slightly. A little twisting is OK as long as it takes a lot of use to do it. A chassis can be straightened fairley easiliy.

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Did someone say that Margay's have good welds? I have seen more of these chassis broken than any other chassis combined I think. I also have to say that I have never seen an Arrow crack or break a weld. They have a very high quality weld and design. Good luck with whatever you get there are many good chassis out there and everyone has thier favorite but go with what you can get the best service from.

David

[John Wehrheim]

The main point is American Chassis today are just as good and in some cases better than a Euro chassis.
Buy the chassis that is successful in your class. Tires, weight and track make a huge difference. Two years ago, WKA had a max width of 50". I can tell you alot of the Euro chassis did not perform as well because they were designed more for 55".

[Brian Kay]

What a great topic!

I've definately come "full circle" on this issue.

97' Track Who? What moron would run an American chassis? Obviously the Euro's have some secret to success that we're years from discovering!

98' Driving (and breaking) red colored karts left and right. Got to know my neighborhood welder pretty well

99' Still on Euro, but really bummed at how CRAPPY the brakes were. Bent a front porch and could NOT get a OE replacement due to language barriers. Called Trackmagic and they had one that worked great. Hmmm, Trackmagic is winning alot of races this year.

00' Bailed on Euro karts 1/2 way through the season and went to the US made CTS. OH MY GOD this kart is incredible!! (but VERY expensive) Geez, Trackmagic won AGAIN??!!!

01' While it's a fantastic kart, the latest CTS price increase forced me to drop the line. $4800 and no motor? yeah right.

01' Mid-Season. Switched to TRACKMAGIC, and have no intention of ever leaving. The quality is obvious just looking at it, and it's track record speaks for itself. GREAT service over the phone, all parts in stock, and they speak english! Also no longer at the mercy of the middleman (importer)

Should'nt we drive US made karts, as long as they perform? The little American flag that comes standard on Trackmagic is especially meaningfull at this time, and it kicks ^$#! on the race track. Nuf said.

Brian K - www.T2racekarts.com