Evans Coolant

John Matthews · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject:

You can get a whole kart made in China if you want Rolling Eyes

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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject:

John Matthews · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject:

Ah, but the first secret to good welds is to know what material you're welding Wink

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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject:

John Matthews · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject:

I don't claim to be a "good" welder but I have had some "experiences" welding on metal from China....
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

Andre Eriksen · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject:

Russell Stevens · Joined: 15 Oct 2012 Posts: 100

You are talking about a low pressure cooling system (close to 0PSI above ambient - see that vent hole in the radiator cap?). Really if it doesn't leak, lets air flow through it, and has enough surface area to cool the water sufficiently, who cares where it's made. With a chassis the material must flex correctly and the welds must hold up to the stresses involved with racing. Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki, and Polaris... Almost all of the smaller engines are made in Taiwan and China, even the liquid cooled ones. The "Chonda" engines are not just copies. Those companies got the original tooling making them for Honda. Look at all of the tape on factory radiators at most races. They already cool too well as it is in most situation.
This is a low stress water tank with fins. There isn't much that can go wrong with it. A new full sized automobile radiator costs about $120 online. This radiator has to hold 16PSI, and deal with more heat and stress then the $400 radiator on your kart. The car radiator requires more material to build, and carries a limited lifetime warranty. Tell me, what makes the kart radiator that is a fraction of the size cost $280 more?
Some people like paying way to much for way to little. maybe if the OE had pretty tig welded radiators with adjustable dampers... Might be woth $400 at that point.
http://www.radiatorexpress.com/product.asp?part=2011+CHRYSLER+200+LIMITED+%2D+2%2E4+liter+L4+RADIATOR+Name+Brand+Replacement&part_id=218397&aaia_id=1447716
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-380331/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-8-00008/overview/

Even the "affordable" Leopard radiator at $180 is a rip off!

Rusty

Brian Degulis · Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:44 am Post subject:

China Man kart has already been done http://www.roadratmotors.com/racing-go-karts

Brian

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:49 am Post subject:

Rusty, there's a couple of things to consider when manufacturing anything.

Number one, How many units are you going to produced? That probably has the biggest effect on the final cost for any consumer product. How many chevy rads do you think Summit sells compared to how many shifter karts are in the entire US?

The volume effects a number of things in the production line, like how the parts are made, and how the parts are assembled.

If your making 100 radiators, your most likely not going to have the parts stamped out because the cost to produce the dies to stamp the parts would exceed the cost of the parts. You could hand make or have them waterjet cut purhaps, all more expensive then having them stamped.

Assembly: The larger the volume the less expensive it is to assemble, see Henry Ford assembly line. Maybe even a robotic welding line if your making enough of them....

Welding absolutely is an issue with respect to radiators, even more so than a chassis. If there's a pin hole in a chassis, you most likely would never know, in a rad you would have a nice leak....

There's enough different styles, prices, and quality to choose from. You can go from a $150 rad to over $1000 for a KG.

CR
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Andre Eriksen · Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:09 am Post subject:

Exactly - that's why I want to use an off the shelf part made in high volume. The price doesn't say much about quality in this case. As already stated we buy 40,000 radiators a month and our manufacturer produces for several US and EU car manufacturers their quality is great but as you point out they are made in high volume.

I personally have two $1,000 (including mount and curtain) CRG radiators right here. They are made in EXACTLY the same way as a sub $10 radiator, again the quality is great but the price is not.

These radiators are manually assembled, tanks/headers are stamped and everything is run through a soldering oven. Cost is a function of soldering time, area, material and labor. This very radiator is less $100 to make and that's a fact.

I see radiators made by tig welding for the karting market only. These are obviously low volume and labor intensive and thus more expensive. From a quality perspective I would argue they are not a hair better but because they serve other needs such as form factor, mounts, curtains etc. there is a market for it.

It's all good and I bought the CRG radiators myself but if people think there is a direct link between quality/performance and price they are getting fooled. Cooling performance is a function of area and FPI (given air and liquid flow is the same) which can as easily be optimized from the factory on a $100 radiator as on a $500 radiator.
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Russell Stevens · Joined: 15 Oct 2012 Posts: 100

Thanks Andre, you said what I was typing in a more succinct fashon. PM me if and when you get the info on this. I'd be willing help financially back the import of some inexpensive/quality radators. Parts prices are a barrier for the hobby racer, and I believe that doing things like this will help grow the sport. I'd be in if there was a minimal upcharge to cover time and effort on the part of those involved. (ie. the goal is to help the larting comminuity, and cover the costs involved)

To everyone else:
TV's, computer motherboards, "iProducts", Harley Davidson Speedometers, most of the small bits in the car you drive, and much more are all made in China. When someone places an order for a quality product that is what they get from the manufacturer. When someone places an order for an item with price point/vs/margin in mind they get a product to meet that goal. They will make whatever you want, at whatever quality you want. Unfortunately the obvious "Made in China" items are on the low price point end of the scale.

Some questions to the experts who are defending the price of kart radiators.
1) With the number of Rotax Max packages sold worldwide how can the Max Radiator be considered a low volume part?
2) How is the Max radiator $220 better than the radiator on a Leopard? Is it hand made by Gnomes is the Austrian Alps?
3) Why can a manufacturer like Fluidyne sell a really nice looking made in California CNC / tig aftermarket radiator for CR125's for $250 retail when the stamped and mass produced stuff for karts costs significantly more (don't say higher sales volume, how many CR125's are out there replacing the stock radiator with coolers from this one manufacturer)?
4) Where is this $150 radiator? The best price I've found is for $180+shipping on a Leopard cooler.
Thanks
Rusty

Andre Eriksen · Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:48 am Post subject:

No problem, I already put out a request to my team in China - let's see what they come back with. Because of our volume we have two suppliers we will ask both for standard products in a karting form factor. I don't care too much about it but if people are interested I will be happy to help.
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2012 Formula Car Challenge Vice Champion (Pro Formula Mazda)
2011 Rotax DD2 Masters National Points Champion
2011 NorCal DD2 Masters Vice Champion
2010 NorCal Rotax Masters Champion
www.viking-racing.com
http://www.facebook.com/VikingRacing

Chris Reinhardt · Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject:

Tim Salvino · Joined: 20 Nov 2010 Posts: 261

Guys, lets not think too hard on this...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-oversize-YAMAHA-Raptor660-YFM660-YFM-660-01-02-03-04-05-aluminum-radiator-/261004049867?hash=item3cc50dbdcb&item=261004049867&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Cheap radiators that will fit our application are EASILY found all over ebay. Most come from ATVs and can be had for under $75. You MIGHT have to add/move a few mounting tabs, but im pretty sure you could make what's on there work. This particular one has a core measuring ~8"x12" and is ~1.5" thick single core. PLENTY to cool any 125cc engine.

John Matthews · Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject:

People used oil coolers before there were any mass produced water cooled kart motors, I have a whole tub full of them. If you think BRP (Rotax) is singling out the kart market for expensive parts you should try working on one of their SeaDoos or quads. They've earned a reputation for quality products and charge enough for parts that they can keep availability pretty good. I think we're fortunate to have them participating in the karting business as a viable competitor to the Italian companies. What other manufacturer offers a warranty on a kart engine?

I applaud anyone who wants to go into business here in America, if you can make a profit selling kart parts and your customers are happy I don't care where your products are made. I've sold karts and other products made in China in my businesses. Some things are made well, others not so much. What I found is with low margin cheaply made products I had to put so much into support and warranty issues I couldn't make a reliable profit so I've dropped several product lines over the years rather than sell something I couldn't stand behind.

How you feel about buying and using products made overseas is your own prerogative, I'm not going to get into that debate. All I can tell you is that in my store I have a very simple supplier policy. I only sell stuff I would use myself and if I can't get a product made in the USA I look first to countries that are our allies and engage in responsible trade practices.....

Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.