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Gary Osterholt
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Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2769
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 Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Peters wrote: | OK - I didn't take enough flak for last nights post I'm back for round 2. I'm wondering if we can find a win/win for the giants and the midgets. Would it be possible to set up two weight classes within the TaG Masters group that compete head to head for the race win and the championship. If we were to use the restricted header for the lite guys and the standard header for the heavy guys could we find a weight formula that would be competitive, ie 355# for the lite and 405# heavy. In concept its no different than other series that run multiple engine packages.
Before you start lobbing gernades, stop and think about how it might work and benefit the group and the series before listing all the reasons it can't. |
Mark,
I don't think that's the answer either. The single engine format is a great concept. You don't have to worry about which engine will be faster at each track.
The issue with two different weights in the same class is the tracks. The weight would affect the lap times differently at each track. Just look at Dousman and New Castle. The weight difference would need to be different at this two tracks to create an even playing field.
Gary
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Tim Koyen
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Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 1556
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of good points about the age. Good suggestions are being made here and we're listening. 
I may be the only one from USPKS replying right now, but I guarantee you that everyone is reading your words and thinking about the best way to go from here.
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Mark Peters
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 55
Location: United States, Wisconsin, Delafield
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Gary I had considered the difference in performance based on the track, but that also holds true in the multi-engine series where many of the competitors can't afford to have a different engine for every different track length. I'm looking for a means to level the playing field that minimizes the significant differences in driver sizes beyond weight. Tuning a kart with 70-75lbs of weight on it is a very difficult and sometimes next to impossible.
Looking for a win/win
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Mark Peters
#54 Badger TaG Master Series |
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Chad Landers
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 303
Location: United States, Wisconsin, Plover
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Qouted from Gary's post.
[/quote]20 years ago when WKA first started a Masters class, I believe it was first called 35 or older. The senior age was 18+. The senior age was lowered to 15+. Nothing was changed to the "Masters" class.
Yes the "Masters" still want to race and be competitive, but they all over jobs, etc come Monday morning. Even if I was close to the Senior weight, at the age 31, I wouldn't want to race against a lot of the 15/16 year olds in Seniors. So I guess I'll have to wait another couple years, work on my diet/workout program and start racing again when I turn 35.
Gary[/quote]
I totally agree with this and have dealt with this last year in a few Route 66 races I did in Tag. Most 30 somethings have a house/mortgage, kids, and a job to go to on Monday. The young kids only have to go back to school on Monday and are still on their parents insurance. They take more risks.
Granted I was off the pace in the races I attended, but I didn't appreciate being bumped and pushed off the racing line trying to brake going into a corner. The others were obviously faster than I was, but couldn't wait the extra second to pass me on the straights or out brake me. Instead of trying to push me out of the way in an unsafe manner.
I've never had this problem racing with the older like minded people that don't take the risks and have responsibilites at home and have others depending on them.
I would like to see the age lowered a little to say 30-32. Or lower the minimum driver weight to 180 but be 30+.
I bet there are a few others out there that agree with the age needing to be lowered to about 30 like skusa or Rotax Max.
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Brian McHattie
Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Peters wrote: | Gary I had considered the difference in performance based on the track, but that also holds true in the multi-engine series where many of the competitors can't afford to have a different engine for every different track length. I'm looking for a means to level the playing field that minimizes the significant differences in driver sizes beyond weight. Tuning a kart with 70-75lbs of weight on it is a very difficult and sometimes next to impossible.
Looking for a win/win |
The kart doesnt know if it has no ballast on it or 75# of ballast on it. It knows the overall weight it has to carry. Tunig a kart at 405 isnt simple, its something I have learned to do over the last few years, it doesnt render the kart impossible to tune, it just takes a new tuning philosophy and understanding.
As for Mr. Seward, I am #220 right now, trying to lose and get back to around 200# but that will take a while. As for what I can commit to for the series, I will commit to race as many races as I can. I dont personally care for the WKA mentality and politics but also need some tune up races for when I travel out west for the pro tour events.
As for my karts, I race OTK products, argueably one of the lightest on the market. At Supernationals, with my kart, carbon floor pan, small radiator, carbon chain gaurd, ballistic 15oz battery, Rok TT engine and 3Kg of ballast I was 408 with 3/4 of a tank of fuel. I weighed again, roughly 220#.
Now, I have done the weights before on engine packages and with all the wiring harness as well as the engine itself, a leopard package is roughly 7 to 9# heavier than a Vortex. so 408# - 6.6#(1Kg = 2.2#) - 220# = 181.4# + 9# (leopard versus vortex) and total kart weight with H2O and 3/4 of a tank of fuel = 190#
Now, that is my combination granted, but I havent found many karts that are lighter and that is using my experience owning both engine combinations at one time for myself and a driver we were backing at the time.
I'll support the series as best I can, and I'm not looking for anyone to cater to me personally, but if you want a single engine manufacturer series I feel there needs to be more of a compromise to those of us racing heavier weights and more powerful engine packages if you want the series to grow and have a good kart count, you cant just say this is what it is all over the country otherwise and not recognize the fact that every other series in the country, except R-Max, are a multiple engine formula and allow for the lighter drivers as well as the heavier ones to choose an engine to suit their wants/needs or body type.
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Robby Mott
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Joined: 20 Aug 2001
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Brian.
Class weight should be at least 395
With respect to the smaller guys......you have a valid option to make weight by adding lead. The bigger guys.........may not have any options but running 10 - 20 pounds over class weight.
The higher weight in this Masters class will allow more folks to play!! |
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Bob Vehring
Joined: 23 Jul 2001
Posts: 1338
Location: United States, Wisconsin,
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have a duck in this hunt but will throw something out to think about on the above comment.
"The kart doesnt know if it has no ballast on it or 75# of ballast on it. It knows the overall weight it has to carry."
I think afew things play into this, I agree to some point they can be dealt with with chassis tuning but sometimes only to a degree.
Corner weights, sometimes based on the size of the seat and engine combination, it gets difficult to get the side to side weight you may want, often this also leaves you with a kart the is less then ideal in front weight. If the driver has long legs also this becomes more of a factor. Yes in some cases you can add weight to adjust but if the driver is heavy to start with, you might not want that option.
The second issue is VCG (vertical center of gravity) I'm finally seeing more 2 cy sprint people carrying scales with them to the races,what I don't see is people figuring in VCG when doing set up or simply asking others about it.
Lets assume we have a class with no chassis max weight limit, we can now get either a 150# or a 250# driver into a 400# class If the little guy is short but the big guy is tall and top heavy, the chassis is going to see a considerable difference.
The bottom line is the little guy always has the advantage of placing his weight where ever he wants it exactly, that includes up and down and VCG has a big effect
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Brian McEvoy
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 33
Location: United States, Wisconsin,
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Robby Mott wrote: | I agree with Brian.
Class weight should be at least 395
With respect to the smaller guys......you have a valid option to make weight by adding lead. The bigger guys.........may not have any options but running 10 - 20 pounds over class weight.
The higher weight in this Masters class will allow more folks to play!! |
I will agree with this to a certain extent. However, This is a national level series and drivers should be approaching as such. My first year in Tag it was very apparent that I was over-weight with a leapord. I did not do what many do, which is simply purchase a Rok or a Motori and keep eating garbage all day and not working out. I took responsibility dropped 20 lbs and starting eating a lot better to maintain my weight loss. I am enjoying a salad as I type this  . I wanted to do everything in my power to be competitive. Not only does that include having equipment in good working order, but also my physcial fitness and weight. I am 6'2" and way about 175lbs. I work at maintaining my weight all year round.
I don't have a problem adding some weight in a effort to get some of the "Bigger Boned" guys in the mix. That does make sense with the single engine rule. But any weight addition should not be out of control to the point where we are accomodating people who are not willing to put in the same effort off the track they put in on the track.
I would say the class should go to a max of 390-395. At that point utilize the full size header as the weight will slow us down enough. |
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Brian McHattie
Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I will agree with this to a certain extent. However, This is a national level series and drivers should be approaching as such. My first year in Tag it was very apparent that I was over-weight with a leapord. I did not do what many do, which is simply purchase a Rok or a Motori and keep eating garbage all day and not working out. I took responsibility dropped 20 lbs and starting eating a lot better to maintain my weight loss. I am enjoying a salad as I type this . I wanted to do everything in my power to be competitive. Not only does that include having equipment in good working order, but also my physcial fitness and weight. I am 6'2" and way about 175lbs. I work at maintaining my weight all year round.
I don't have a problem adding some weight in a effort to get some of the "Bigger Boned" guys in the mix. That does make sense with the single engine rule. But any weight addition should not be out of control to the point where we are accomodating people who are not willing to put in the same effort off the track they put in on the track.
I would say the class should go to a max of 390-395. At that point utilize the full size header as the weight will slow us down enough |
Sorry to throw you under the bus Brian, but I am taking this personally. So, basically you are saying I sit on my ass, eat junk all the time, dont work out and am out of shape so I rely on a different engine package to pull my fat, lazy ass around the track. Am I reading this right? I guess I should reply in kind as well, but I'll keep my scathing responses to myself for the sake of the promoters getting something positive accomplished. I know my fat ass could use another doughnut and podium finish right
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Gary Osterholt
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2769
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian McEvoy wrote: |
I will agree with this to a certain extent. However, This is a national level series and drivers should be approaching as such.
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Then why have an Masters class at all? Just run Senior or "Pro"?
Gary
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Jeff DeMello
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 2213
Location: United States, Pittsburgh Pa,
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian McHattie wrote: | | I know my fat ass could use another doughnut and podium finish right |
Brian that's why I can't bring my dog over to your shop. Your old man keeps feeding Holley all those doughnuts. 
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Jeff DeMello
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Jeff Salak
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 624
Location: United States, Illinois, Antioch
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Funny how us fat asses should get in shape. At 46 years old Im not going to be spending much time at the gym.
At 6 years old I started playing soccer, 1972 in Chicago. 34 years later and some 3000 games later. I stopped playing. Having played college, semi pro, tried out for 6 different pro teams only to make practice development team. Most of my life 100% in shape.
At 41 purchased a kart and enjoy every moment of it. Just as i do my pizza, burgers, and what ever I feel like eating! |
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Mike Arnold
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 1089
Location: United States, Kentucky,
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject: Small people never have a chance |
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My kids are small for their age and are at a huge disadvantage for basketball, football, etc. but I don't see those sports having a class or division for small people. Now we enter racing where smaller people should have an advantage and everybody wants to add weight to take this advantage away. Now granted my kids can't grow a foot to be more competitive in basketball but some people could lose weight and get in shape!
Just sayin!
Now before everybody starts throwing rocks at me I do understand reality and that weights need to fit the majority of people who have the $ to race or there won't be anybody to race.
I just think its odd how some sports reward people for their size (basketball / football, etc) and karting does the opposite. Karting isn't the same asprofessional racing for this reason I guess. I sure wish the other sports would try to level the playing field for my kids like karting does. (saying all of this tongue in cheek )
Maybe we need 1 class where their is not a min. weight for the little people to race in??
Fire away!!!
Mike
Mike |
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Joe Palmer
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 151
Location: United States, Florida, St. Augustine
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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This isn't an issue of who was lucky enough to be born with good genes, or has time & motivation to exercise and diet properly. It's about setting the weights at a level which will attract the most competitors, and the best talent. Remember, this is a business, and their long term success will be tied to wheter or not they..... wait for it........MAKE MONEY!!!
Regardless of whatever the weight is, there will be some that can't make weight. That's is life as they say. Heck, even if the weight was set at 425LBS a guy like Gary O at 6'-7" would struggle to hit that. It's a shame because that dude can flatout drive.
Brian McHattie, Robbie Mott, and Chris Rock have stated that they believe the right weight is between 395lbs & 405lbs. If the USPKS has those guys racing in TAG Masters, it's going to attract alot more attention from around the country.
Feel free to discuss! |
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John Wehrheim
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 1201
Location: United States, Georgia, Norcross
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I only race locally, but I would never consider running TAG unless the weight was around the 405 lb mark. Like many I am 6'2" 210 lbs on a good day. Could I lose weight and get in better shape, sure, but that's not the point.
We don't have any issue asking the dads to add 20-70 lbs on their kids karts, but we can't do this for the masters? Seems odd to me. |
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